Questionable Camos

[M45]

I like it also.I think the word everyone is looking for is patina, not flatness.

pa·ti·na
pəˈtēnə/
noun
noun: patina; plural noun: patinas

a green or brown film on the surface of bronze or similar metals, produced by oxidation over a long period.
a gloss or sheen on wooden furniture produced by age and polishing. (google definition)



Full Definition of patina (webster's online dictionary)
plural patinas play \-nəz\ or patinae play \-ˌnē, -ˌnī\

1
a : a usually green film formed naturally on copper and bronze by long exposure or artificially (as by acids) and often valued aesthetically for its color b : a surface appearance of something grown beautiful especially with age or use

2
: an appearance or aura that is derived from association, habit, or established character

3
: a superficial covering or exterior




In helmet collecting, I have taken patina to mean the worn areas on a helmet, especially to the top of the crown that is worn down to smooth paint (re: from factory/reissue texture) and/or to a smooth old rusted steel. Formed by repetitive field/combat use. Another example might be the photo of a kubelwagon in North Africa that had the paint worn off of the top of the driver's door where it had been touched repeatedly. That bare steel forms layers of oxidation (what I call 'black rust). It does not get a chance to form a thick red rust because the object is being used repeatedly.

Flatness and deadness to me refers to the body of paint; its depth, its richness. New paint has more depth, body and richness than does paint that has oxidized for decades (I'm talking about flat paints, not glossy ones). I was trying to point this out with the three Normandy Camos above.

 

[mcorioles]

I understand but surely you've seen a helmet that has been cleaned.Its night and day.The colors pop and look much more vibrant.

Only real camos have a combo of dust,dirt ageing of the paint. It's one of the most important things to look for IMO for a untouched combat camo lid.

Fakers always fail to do it convincingly to a collector in the hobby for awhile.

 

[Hambone]

Flatness and deadness to me refers to the body of paint; its depth, its richness. New paint has more depth, body and richness than does paint that has oxidized for decades (I'm talking about flat paints, not glossy ones). I was trying to point this out with the three Normandy Camos above.

This is the central question for me with respect to camo helmet analysis.

I understand but surely you've seen a helmet that has been cleaned.Its night and day.The colors pop and look much more vibrant.

Only real camos have a combo of dust,dirt ageing of the paint. It's one of the most important things to look for IMO for a untouched combat camo lid.

Fakers always fail to do it convincingly to a collector in the hobby for awhile.

This is also true, IMHO. These are the most important points in analysis. A cleaned helmet is like a K98k with a sanded stock to me. I avoid both. The excellent points above do require a visual familiarity with what they really mean. There are forum exspurts out there who think they know what these statements mean, but really don't know. They don't know what they don't know. There are anomalies and departures from such rules, but they are few. The anomalies are usually the point of arguments and advanced to establish "rules". They should not be. I'm very conservative when it comes to camo helmet buying and stick closely to the points made by M45 and Mcorioles above.

 

[mcorioles]

This is the central question for me with respect to camo helmet analysis.



This is also true, IMHO. These are the most important points in analysis. A cleaned helmet is like a K98k with a sanded stock to me. I avoid both. The excellent points above do require a visual familiarity with what they really mean. There are forum exspurts out there who think they know what these statements mean, but really don't know. They don't know what they don't know. There are anomalies and departures from such rules, but they are few. The anomalies are usually the point of arguments and advanced to establish "rules". They should not be. I'm very conservative when it comes to camo helmet buying and stick closely to the points made by M45 and Mcorioles above.

I like your sanded stock -cleaned camo comparison and agree.Although I'm not as conservative on camos,LOL.

This weekend I'll post one up I'm comfortable with but I know you guys won't be.And that's fine.Im not gonna get all butt hurt.Im very open to others opinions.At the end of the day you have to be happy with it.

 

[M45]

NEW! Item 795 M35 Heer helmet w/rough texture over-paint

NEW! Item 795 M35 Heer helmet w/rough texture over-paint

This is an #EF66 M35 Heer helmet which originally left the factory as a double decal army. After issue, it was over-painted in a very rough texture dark grey colored paint. Almost black. The decal is a Huber-Jordan type which was used by EF in 1938-39 as their "house" decal. (later being replaced by the Juttner pattern in 1939) The decal has been carefully masked off during the exterior overpaint. The inside of the shell shows the overpaint on the skirt of the helmet and portions of the liner frame being splattered. The liner shows good wear but remains intact and sound. A very attractive example for fans of rough texture helmets. $2500.00

An excellent movie prop for a close up shot, IMO. The decal and helmet are original and the 'over-paint' looks recently applied (condition-wise) to fit with the time period of the movie. Pristine condition of the wood chip and texture material, crown, rivet heads. A dusting with a lighter material simulates age/use.

 

[M45]

NEW! Item 796 M35 Luftwaffe helmet w/ heavy texture paint

NEW! Item 796 M35 Luftwaffe helmet w/ heavy texture paint

This one is a real corker... The helmet shell i9s an NS68 of 1939 production. The helmet originally left the factory as a double decal Luftwaffe but has been over-painted in a very thick paint giving the surface the texture looking like ocean waves. The National color decal is buried but the Eagle decal was masked off. It is a standard NS pattern eagle decal remaining 95% intact. The liner is a 1939 dated re-enforced aluminum frame with worn but intact leather. The helmet shell has a dome acceptance stamp which is dated 1939. The chinstrap is a brown leather Luftwaffe type which is by ball indications; original to the helmet. It bears a faint Luftwaffe unit marking; most likely from a flak regiment. $3500.00

Another re-inactor using an original helmet, IMO. Pristine condition of material despite one spot worn to bare metal. That bare rivet looks odd. Why did they not paint that one ?

I am seeing much better condition helmets overall being used for re-inactors. This is worrisome because higher grade helmets are being altered in the name of the almighty $$$.

 

[M45]

NEW! Item 801 M35 Heer helmet w/tropical camouflage

NEW! Item 801 M35 Heer helmet w/tropical camouflage

This EF64 helmet originally left the factory as a double decal Heer. The national color shield was subsequently removed supposedly to conform with 1940 specifications. The helmet was later over-painted in a non-standard tan color with the eagle decal remaining exposed. The decal is a typical HJK example which was used as EF factory application during 1938-39. It is heavily worn and has lost a good amount of it's detail. The tan paint has endured significant wear, fading and possible post-war cleaning. It's color, application and wear patterns indicates to me that it is original pre-1945. Not the most attractive Tropical camouflage helmet out there but is a good example. $2950.00

This M35 with heavily worn decal was a good choice for a 'DAK' re-inactor, IMO. A tan/yellow paint was applied and then distressed. The base of the bowl shows much better conditioned paint.

 

[M45]

NEW! Item 803 M35 Tropical camouflage helmet

NEW! Item 803 M35 Tropical camouflage helmet

Here is a fine example of a tropical camouflaged helmet. The shell is an SE66 M35 which was re-issed in single decal configuration as per 1940 specifications. It was later camouflaged by a coat of tan paint brush-applied; covering all traces of the army eagle decal. The tan over-paint remains 90-95% intact. The helmet skirt has a painted name of an Unterofficier Meyer. There is also a unit stencil. The Liner is a post-1940 steel framed type with intact though heavily worn leather. A very nice example of a tropical camouflage helmet. ON HOLD


Fairly well-distributed dings show this one supposedly saw combat. I see a darker antiquing material over the top of this one.

 

[M45]

Original Stahlhelm Normandie Tranung Wehrmacht Elite 2wk

Original Stahlhelm Normandie Tranung Wehrmacht Elite 2wk


eBay-Artikelnummer:
182289917034

 

[mrfarb]

Complete-untouched-original-period-ww2-german-normandie-camo-sd-helmet

http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMPLETE-UN...333797?hash=item3acd7890a5:g:VzAAAOSwOyJX5tsU

I bet this guy believes this story...best photos of a helmet I have seen too.

 

[M45]

Ebay camo

WWII GERMAN Original M40 Luftwaffe Camo ET64 HELMET W/liner

Here is a chance to own an original WWII German M40 Camo Luftwaffe helmet. This is a prominent original camo over luft blue paint and correct Luft partial decal on the left side under the camo. Helmet shell is marked 1162 on back. Original liner is complete, but torn a in a few places. A clear ink stamp of 56 is on one of the liner flaps. You can also see the faint outline of the dome stamp. Here is a chance to own an original camo helmet!! Bid with confidence.!!


Price:
US $1,200.00
Buy It Now


A good deal for a questionable camo (average price 2K-4K). There are plenty of these well-beat helmets out there that are now being 'reconditioned' with camo schemes.

Mine is cheaper than yours McFarb, and using an original helmet as well. See what good deals you can find if you just look around ?

 

[Hambone]

Link to that one on epay. I think I know that helmet and if it is that one I've had in hand it's a completely original camo, it's been cleaned though.

 

[M45]

RE: the camo immediately above, I see fresh rust, pock marking, strange scratches and what looks like paint taken down thin with mineral spirits.

 

[Hambone]

RE: the camo immediately above, I see fresh rust, pock marking, strange scratches and what looks like paint taken down thin with mineral spirits.

I've had the helmet in my hands a number of times. It came out of the woodwork around Fort Benning about 20 years ago and was bought for very little. I have no motivation to gin up a story for it, though it's owned by a family member and close friend. It was cleaned before he got it, but it's an original camo.

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?22912-WTS-M-40-Luft-camo-helmet&p=166674#post166674

 

[mauser99]

Link to that one on epay. I think I know that helmet and if it is that one I've had in hand it's a completely original camo, it's been cleaned though.

Same one for sale on this forum?. If any posted is a ? camo this is it IMHO. I wouldn't buy it on a bet not matter who's saying its fine.

 

[Hambone]

Same one for sale on this forum?. If any posted is a ? camo this is it IMHO. I wouldn't buy it on a bet not matter who's saying its fine.

Ah, so you can tell better from pics than I can having the thing in hand several times over the last 10 years? I've got enough time in, have handled enough helmets, particularly camos, and own enough that I feel like I can make a pretty reliable call after an in hand exam. My calls are fairly cynical as well. I remember when the helmet was picked up and it was probably less than the cost of the shell and I know where it came from. The helmet was cleaned at some point postwar.

 

[mauser99]

Ah, so you can tell better from pics than I can having the thing in hand several times over the last 10 years? I've got enough time in, have handled enough helmets, particularly camos, and own enough that I feel like I can make a pretty reliable call after an in hand exam. My calls are fairly cynical as well. I remember when the helmet was picked up and it was probably less than the cost of the shell and I know where it came from. The helmet was cleaned at some point postwar.

Its not a helmet I would own or recommend anyone buy for that matter. Its real cause I say it is isn't a motto I follow. The decal itself if heavily scrubbed and that's a bigger red flag showing it was before the camo was applied. If there is any questionable camo this one is it.

Why would I fight to defend Robs Normandy and not this one.. There is no comparison IMHO. This is just my opinion and I'm voicing it.

I was wondering when it would end up on this thread by M45.

 

[Hambone]

Its not a helmet I would own or recommend anyone buy for that matter. Its real cause I say it is isn't a motto I follow. The decal itself if heavily scrubbed and that's a bigger red flag showing it was before the camo was applied. If there is any questionable camo this one is it.

Why would I fight to defend Robs Normandy and not this one.. There is no comparison IMHO. This is just my opinion and I'm voicing it.

I was wondering when it would end up on this thread by M45.

Ah, now I see your angst. It's how waftardation was born..Regrettably I simply don't like that line of new looking "Normandy" camos. I have always been cynical of them and they appear sporadically in sufficient numbers to cause concern. It's not "Rob's camo" particularly that I have problems with, it's the five other ones just like it. Support for them sounds remarkably like that of the Champagne Rune. They also seem to traffic for high dollar to those who have not been in the game very long. Have you been involved in the trafficking and sale of them? I at least had enough sense to issue my negative critique of those "Normandy freshies" with the caveat that I'd want one, or better, several, in hand before a final opinion. Your eagerness to condemn something you've never had in your hand tells me your Kung fu is weak grasshopper, or at least biased.

I have no reason or interest in shilling this helmet. I don't buy and churn and broker things like you so as to have a vested or financial interest in my public opinions. I would bet a large amount of money that this helmet is right, but the camo shell has been cleaned.

 

[mauser99]

I have none in either. You have strong opinions and you will drag them along to the bitter end. It's a helmet I don't like and you do. Oh well.

As period photos show helmets were painted in batches so I would expect there to be similar helmets out there.

Like the tan and green helmets you own and the similar ones you post. They are all fake because they are all the same ? Really.

I don't need to argue my point. The point has been made. I'm sure you will.

 

[mrfarb]

An over cleaned helmet is like an over cleaned rifle, hard to sell and not a high dollar item. Problem with over cleaned helmets is you lose the small signs needed to determine if it's real or fake - the current argument over this helmet is an indicator of that, and in general the problem with collecting camo helmets -- everyone has an opinion and every one is right.