Questionable Camos

[mcorioles]

To my deep satisfaction I have been deemed a newbie who has not studied the field of german helmets. I guess 26 years of collecting does not count. My meagre collection of 10 original helmet (way to few to have an opinion...) of which three are camo's still put me in the amature league by some. Which is fine. I have learned over the years that integrity and honesty in the german helmet collecting community is more wanting than one earlier believed.

And yes, I think the majority of the "Normandy" camo's circulating now most likely are exotic freshies, or enhanced originals with fake paint.

With all the new knowledge, especially the lot number research done by Brian, has mitigated a lot of fakers urge to make "factory issue" helmets. That leaves the fakers to search for new markets where it is not to easy to detect what is real and what is not. Hence the flux and abundance of sexy, exotic freshies of every kind. The dealer sites are packed with camo helmets. Go figure...!!

Not insulting you,relax.Although I find it odd that you are a 26 year collector and find Rex's work the same as originals posted on GHW.

This "freshie" thing is not a conclusive argument.If there are beat up camos there certainly are ones not beat to hell also.All the camos on dealers sites?How many are on these sites 100, 200?Also not a argument there had to literally thousands of camos used during the war.Yes there are fakes out there just very few good fakes IMO

 

[ZF41 K98k]

Won't fool a collector that studies and has handled real camos.

While Acer gets hot headed he has some valid points.I have no idea who or how long people on this forum have been collecting.But I can be only assume from some of the comments there are a lot of newbies commenting if they can't tell Rex's Camos are fake.And comments that "most Normandies are fake.For one they all exhibit the same texture.

Knowledge is power in helmet collecting just as it is in any field.

Not trying to fight or put anyone down but some of these opinions are just as dangerous as the the fakes.


BTW Ve been fooled 2x by camos I thought were legit in 15 years of collecting.If you do your homework it's not as dire a situation as you may think.One was owned by a very high end collector and GHW did call it out.I think it's a great forum without prejudice .

Well said, nice to see someone telling it how it actually is... and not how a few members seem to think (or have been told/read) it is.

The Rex camos are good - but only in a display sense - i.e to fill that gap in your collection when you can't afford the real thing. They would not fool an experienced collector. I personally am not one of those who could afford to just go out an buy an original 3 colour helmet at the going dealer rate whenever I wanted. Unfortunately. However, at the same time I also wouldn't want a repro... because at the end of the day it wouldn't mean anything to me. Just personal preference I guess and each to their own.

IMO though it is getting blown way out of proportion on here as to how dire this hobby is now with regards to fakes. There are plenty (relatively speaking) of 'one looker' original camos out there, even if that term does get abused somewhat...

 

[M45]

REX restoration compared to GHW2 exotic freshie

Won't fool a collector that studies and has handled real camos.

While Acer gets hot headed he has some valid points.I have no idea who or how long people on this forum have been collecting. But I can be only assume from some of the comments there are a lot of newbies commenting if they can't tell Rex's Camos are fake. And comments that "most Normandies are fake.For one they all exhibit the same texture.

Knowledge is power in helmet collecting just as it is in any field.

Not trying to fight or put anyone down but some of these opinions are just as dangerous as the the fakes.


BTW Ve been fooled 2x by camos I thought were legit in 15 years of collecting.If you do your homework it's not as dire a situation as you may think. One was owned by a very high end collector and GHW did call it out.I think it's a great forum without prejudice .

REX restoration compared to GHW2 exotic freshie.


While Acer gets hot headed he has some valid points.

I fail to see any vaild points out of Acer. He's PO'd that he got caught vetting questionable camos and does not like me critiquing GHW2 camos here.


But I can be only assume from some of the comments there are a lot of newbies commenting if they can't tell Rex's Camos are fake.

That's right; we're all "newbies" here. The REX camo is "obviously" fake, but the GHW2 3-color camo is "obviously" original according to the vettings by GHW2.


And comments that "most Normandies are fake. For one they all exhibit the same texture.

From my experiences, the 3-color camo is the most common postwar camo replication. It is just popular, what can I say ? But it is also one of the easier ones to spot since supposed RAL paints were used, meaning that if the restorer does not get RAL correct, it can be easily spotted re: BURGUNDY in place of RED-BROWN.

 

[Hambone]

WAF thread not allowed?

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=834155

Because they were forced to. This is the biggest fraud in modern collecting history and that genie is not going back in the bottle because of the extraordinary effort and expense of DougB. Without DougB and the genie being let out the bottle at GHW2, do you think WAF would have allowed this discussion and debate?

WAF attacked, censored and locked threads, and banned on XRFacts criticism and the first person, "ZAM" who pointed out that the Champagne Rune was airbrushed. The warning was sent to all. The level of censorship and misinformation and cronyism is disgusting IMHO. Go there and start discussing legal action, investigations of WHO was involved, Hicks, and XRFacts and watch what happens. Also, you are aware that posts are deleted and censored there, and threads locked? If not, you are officially waftarded. If you believe that WAF is an open and transparent and uncensored site / helmet forum, like this forum and site, with all due respect, you're delusional.

 

[mauser99]

REX restoration compared to GHW2 exotic freshie.


While Acer gets hot headed he has some valid points.

I fail to see any vaild points out of Acer. He's PO'd that he got caught vetting questionable camos and does not like me critiquing GHW2 camos here.


But I can be only assume from some of the comments there are a lot of newbies commenting if they can't tell Rex's Camos are fake.

That's right; we're all "newbies" here. The REX camo is "obviously" fake, but the GHW2 3-color camo is "obviously" original according to the vettings by GHW2.


And comments that "most Normandies are fake. For one they all exhibit the same texture.

From my experiences, the 3-color camo is the most common postwar camo replication. It is just popular, what can I say ? But it is also one of the easier ones to spot since supposed RAL paints were used, meaning that if the restorer does not get RAL correct, it can be easily spotted re: BURGUNDY in place of RED-BROWN.

That's what I would expect.. The repro is a copy of an original and lets not forget that.

Acer was pissed as you were using his quotes with his screen name on this page out of context IMHO and that's what brought him here nothing else. Other GHW member's have jumped over to view and comment as well.. Some is constructive some is not. At least there is conversation on the topic worth while IMHO.

 

[KSH67]

The saddest thing about this most recent helmet that Rex posted (which I commissioned him to paint) is that it was originally one of the early M35 helmets sold to Spain with an early Spanish leather liner. It was a placeholder in my helmets of WWII collection that had a biker/kid repaint probably in the 70's, if it had the original finish I would have kept it as is, I actually wish it had the original finish. Anyway, I pulled the liner and welded the extra holes, which will be able to be discovered from the inside, thus helping foil resale as original later.

Also, lots of reenactors out there using redone original helmets for legitimate purposes. I bought a boat load from Poland and the Czech Republic back in the 90's and early 00's for reenactors. This one will be part of my display as well as a place holder in my collection until I find an original that is unimpeachable.

 

[nirvana]

This is an observation that I've made as this thread has gone on. People will say "I've only had one fake" or "I've been fleeced with fake camos two or three times." The implication here is that the rest are original. I'm sorry, but as a collector of stuff, I believe that's a really tough statement to prove. There are unknown fakes out there, and if you own 20 camo helmets that you believe are totally real, I'll put money on the barrel head that says at least a couple of them are fake. There is simply stuff out there that we just don't about yet know. There are bad fakers, good fakers, and then probably some amazing ones that no one has yet noticed.

While the CR SS helmets are pretty clearly established these days as being fake, they were at one time considered to be real. As this thread is titled, there are lots of questionable camos, perhaps every camp is questionable to at least one person. Unless a helmet had some provenance that was irrefutable, like it's been documented as always being owned by Patton estate and has never left that collection, these things are always risky.

Rifles are tougher to fake well, in my opinion, probably badges as well, so I'm a bit more comfortable with them.

 

[ZF41 K98k]

This is an observation that I've made as this thread has gone on. People will say "I've only had one fake" or "I've been fleeced with fake camos two or three times." The implication here is that the rest are original. I'm sorry, but as a collector of stuff, I believe that's a really tough statement to prove. There are unknown fakes out there, and if you own 20 camo helmets that you believe are totally real, I'll put money on the barrel head that says at least a couple of them are fake. There is simply stuff out there that we just don't about yet know. There are bad fakers, good fakers, and then probably some amazing ones that no one has yet noticed.

While the CR SS helmets are pretty clearly established these days as being fake, they were at one time considered to be real. As this thread is titled, there are lots of questionable camos, perhaps every camp is questionable to at least one person. Unless a helmet had some provenance that was irrefutable, like it's been documented as always being owned by Patton estate and has never left that collection, these things are always risky.

Rifles are tougher to fake well, in my opinion, probably badges as well, so I'm a bit more comfortable with them.

I disagree. If you went round and picked 20 helmets at random from various dealer's websites, then yes, I am sure some will be fake. That's almost a given with how much these things are worth - hence it's just about the $$$ for some of them. But not all. However, if you are discerning with your collecting, then there is no reason why all your helmets shouldn't be original. Like I said in a previous post there are plenty (again, relatively speaking...) of 'one looker' originals around amongst the weeds...

 

[Ruffin]

M35 Luft Camo

Wood chip textured paint over Luftwaffe blue-gray with heavy wear

 

[FrankM]

Yes, sure, still waiting to see your collection, if you ever have had anything

Brian (M45) showed helmets from his collection for all to see on GHW a few years ago and if one looks at page 408 of the Niewiarowicz book one of Brian's helmets features.He has been in this helmet hobby longer then you Acer! he has studied helmets for years and shared his knowledge with other collectors.

Frank

 

[mcorioles]

REX restoration compared to GHW2 exotic freshie.


While Acer gets hot headed he has some valid points.

I fail to see any vaild points out of Acer. He's PO'd that he got caught vetting questionable camos and does not like me critiquing GHW2 camos here.


But I can be only assume from some of the comments there are a lot of newbies commenting if they can't tell Rex's Camos are fake.

That's right; we're all "newbies" here. The REX camo is "obviously" fake, but the GHW2 3-color camo is "obviously" original according to the vettings by GHW2.


And comments that "most Normandies are fake. For one they all exhibit the same texture.

From my experiences, the 3-color camo is the most common postwar camo replication. It is just popular, what can I say ? But it is also one of the easier ones to spot since supposed RAL paints were used, meaning that if the restorer does not get RAL correct, it can be easily spotted re: BURGUNDY in place of RED-BROWN.

The pictures you posted with Rex's Normandy and Andy's real one show stark differences.Andy's is 100% legit.

You actually think Andy's is fake?

Not to mention camo paint was mixed to varying degrees ,there was no " formula" so I would assume the colors were affected by this.

 

[Hambone]

The pictures you posted with Rex's Normandy and Andy's real one show stark differences.

I agree with this.

 

[Nzef1940]

Because they were forced to. This is the biggest fraud in modern collecting history and that genie is not going back in the bottle because of the extraordinary effort and expense of DougB. Without DougB and the genie being let out the bottle at GHW2, do you think WAF would have allowed this discussion and debate?

WAF attacked, censored and locked threads, and banned on XRFacts criticism and the first person, "ZAM" who pointed out that the Champagne Rune was airbrushed. The warning was sent to all. The level of censorship and misinformation and cronyism is disgusting IMHO. Go there and start discussing legal action, investigations of WHO was involved, Hicks, and XRFacts and watch what happens. Also, you are aware that posts are deleted and censored there, and threads locked? If not, you are officially waftarded. If you believe that WAF is an open and transparent and uncensored site / helmet forum, like this forum and site, with all due respect, you're delusional.

I am under no illusions re WAF censorship

I am not advocating for any site - for or against.

I have no bone in this fight. No pun intended.

 

[Nzef1940]

Whilst not helmet related , this thread in my view pretty much sums up WAF:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=822619

Read first couple of pages and then last if you do not want to be bored to death.

 

[M45]

Normandy camo

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/52885-m35-ns68-ln-e114-normandy/

A very nice 3-color camo that I like very much.

-Nice flat paint, not glossy
-Heavy crown wear, not evenly distributed minor wear.
-colors seem to be true.

 

[M45]

Another Normandy camo

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/52885-m35-...e114-normandy/

Well-oxidized flat, dead looking paint. Colors seem to be true. Heavy combat wear.

Aside from the collector handling which can give a sheen to these, looking past that to the paint itself one can see the deadness and flatness.

When the paint itself exhibits a shininess, a newness and a brightness, that's when I have concerns.

 

[M45]

Ealier posted Normandy Camo

Earlier posted Normandy Camo

Although many collectors like this one, I have concerns (questions). The paint itself appears shiny, bright, new looking. The interior paint has a newness as well, IMO.

When 3 color camo was applied wartime, the paint, although flat, exhibited a newness and brightness of freshly applied paint. These aspects have changed due to age and oxidation, so that now the camo looks different than it did 70 years ago.

If a camo exhibits the newness and brightness of freshly applied paint (rich, vibrant colors), that is a bad sign, IMO (it lacks the 70 years of age and oxidation).

 

[M45]

Sd luft rtbg + tan

SD LUFT CAMO

This appears to be a camo using tan, red-brown and Luft blue gray mixed with sand. Extremely unusual to see Luft blue gray used in a field camo scheme and not as a depot reissue, IMO. Extremely unusual = extremely improbable. Tan is bright and vibrant, not dull and faded after 70 years. Decal shot shows pristine condition of sand and bubbling paint. Essentially no combat wear in that shot. Bubbles may have been caused by applied heat. Another nice original turned into a movie prop, IMO.

Viola! A $400 helmet becomes a $4000 camo.


Time Traveler Johhny G. Westhost militaria site is down:
https://www.johnnyg.westhost.com/uniforms.html

 

[M45]

I don't think the amount of wear on a helmet is a major factor in determining authenticity.


I believe wear to be an important factor that should not be lightly dismissed. The reason is that modern camo reproductions have never seen combat, thus normal combat wear is absent. Combat wear (if there is any) has to be artificially applied. This artificial wear can often be spotted as such (repetitive scratches, paint popped off with hard breaks, etc...).

Due to such wear being difficult for many restorers to apply with accuracy, many restorers simply forego the attempt. So then you have so many of these 'exotic freshies' with little to no believable combat wear.



It was just lost soon after it was painted or wasn't worn much.

Of course there are original camos that have little wear, but this kind of thinking will get you into trouble in this day and age of the widespread 'exotic freshie'.

 

[Warrior1354]

Fakes have been a problem since the day Berlin fell and people found out that American GI's had a taste for war booty. Hell they were making fake SA daggers out of Spain in the late forties. This stuff has been faked since day one. Whats wrong now is that fake helmets and camo hump jobs are being praised by the so called writers of the books. That their papers that go with this fake crap that says its real is wroth no more then toilet paper.

What really is sad is that this destroys the future of new collectors coming in too the hobby. Who the hell wants too be screwed out of $4000. And when your call it out your banned. Or your post count isn't high enough. Or how about you just got here what do you know.

As Mike Stevens told us at the 2016 SOS show. The old saying if you were in diapers back then or you weren't born at that time your opinion doesn't matter. And that rings true I have been told your young what the hell do you know.