Question about 98k wood finish

[Muncher 1953]

I want to say my byf 42 has more then just 81 year old linseed oil applied. It's very dark, though maybe its just from a production difference in oil.

Laminated or walnut?
Either way, you may be right about something other than just plain linseed oil, but: as I write this, I’m looking at a table I built 45+ years ago from yellow poplar. If you’re familiar with the species, the sapwood is quite light like white pine, the heartwood an OD green, sometimes the very center is distinctly purple. My table was coated with boiled linseed oil 3 times when new, no stain. Today its a medium to dark brown (has seen sunlight, but not for last 20 years or so) and the purple stripes are the color of black walnut. If I had a ‘before’ pic I’d post the comparison, it’s striking!
I believe some oil used was darker in color than today’s product, it WAS wartime, after all. I think that as more laminated stocks were supplied, either by attentive military planners or by complaint from the field about “white stocks” attracting enemy fire, that effort was made to “tone down” the light color of the stocks, adding dyes to the oil seems likely to me, given the importance of dye manufacturing to the German economy. (world leaders in development & production of synthetic dyes)

To me, its not at all surprising that your stock is dark like stain. I have 2 bcd 43s, g block is blond, x block dark like wet coffee grounds. But I agree, the dark ones “could have” been stained. The pine doors & casings in my home were urethaned by me 35 years ago, again, no stain. a honey gold now, light, but not at all like freshly sanded pine; not as dark as a well handled K98k stock, either.

 

[Muncher 1953]

Tag along to this thread with another question regarding finish.....the cupped butt plates.

Were they ever blued, and if not, what do you call the finish that they left they factory with?

-E-

I believe you’ll find that they were never blued, at least not by the Germans, (or those working under occupation)
dit:
I have a French used kriegmodell stock with a blued butt plate, mostly worn off.

 

[Sauer_Kraut]

Laminated or walnut?
Either way, you may be right about something other than just plain linseed oil, but: as I write this, I’m looking at a table I built 45+ years ago from yellow poplar. If you’re familiar with the species, the sapwood is quite light like white pine, the heartwood an OD green, sometimes the very center is distinctly purple. My table was coated with boiled linseed oil 3 times when new, no stain. Today its a medium to dark brown (has seen sunlight, but not for last 20 years or so) and the purple stripes are the color of black walnut. If I had a ‘before’ pic I’d post the comparison, it’s striking!
I believe some oil used was darker in color than today’s product, it WAS wartime, after all. I think that as more laminated stocks were supplied, either by attentive military planners or by complaint from the field about “white stocks” attracting enemy fire, that effort was made to “tone down” the light color of the stocks, adding dyes to the oil seems likely to me, given the importance of dye manufacturing to the German economy. (world leaders in development & production of synthetic dyes)

To me, its not at all surprising that your stock is dark like stain. I have 2 bcd 43s, g block is blond, x block dark like wet coffee grounds. But I agree, the dark ones “could have” been stained. The pine doors & casings in my home were urethaned by me 35 years ago, again, no stain. a honey gold now, light, but not at all like freshly sanded pine; not as dark as a well handled K98k stock, either.

Mine is laminated. https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/byf-42-b-block.54503/#post-421090

I think the darkening of linseed oil is also noted on enfields. They were built with walnut and beech, while the walnut is typically darker, both end up a similar colour. Granted if they remain unsanded.

 

[tsmgguy]

As a rule of thumb, you find that the original laminated 98K stock finishes were rough or smooth, stained or unstained. Later war stocks were more likely to be rough, exhibiting chatter marks. Take your pick.

Walnut stocks were often nicely finished and sealed, almost to a commercial standard.

I don't think you can look at the stock on any surviving 98K today and draw any valid conclusions about the original finish. The exceptions are the few guns that are in original factory fresh condition.

 

[Casualk98collector]

Just to add to the confusion, the BLO you find at Home Depot is NOT the same stuff they used 80+ years ago. Whatever the Germans (and everyone else for that matter) put in their BLO significantly shortened drying times. Im sure whatever it was has been declared hazardous by today's standards. Just like the black paint the Brits used on their weapons, its nearly impossible to duplicate with todays environmental concerns.

 

[corifleman]

Just to add to the confusion, the BLO you find at Home Depot is NOT the same stuff they used 80+ years ago. Whatever the Germans (and everyone else for that matter) put in their BLO significantly shortened drying times. Im sure whatever it was has been declared hazardous by today's standards. Just like the black paint the Brits used on their weapons, its nearly impossible to duplicate with todays environmental concerns.

Japan drier is pretty darn effective...

 

[Muncher 1953]

Just to add to the confusion, the BLO you find at Home Depot is NOT the same stuff they used 80+ years ago. Whatever the Germans (and everyone else for that matter) put in their BLO significantly shortened drying times. Im sure whatever it was has been declared hazardous by today's standards. Just like the black paint the Brits used on their weapons, its nearly impossible to duplicate with todays environmental concerns.

yes & more so in Kalifornika &Massachusetts, or any nearby states supplied by them, hardware & paint-wise.

Specifically, as I wrote above, compounds of lead, cobalt & zinc
The distribution factor is insidious, as long as 20 years ago, oil-based exterior stain for houses became difficult to find in southern NH, as it has been outlawed in Mass, & many hardware/home store chains’ products are distributed physically through there & by Mass owned businesses, ergo, they have to follow their home state’s laws. Recently I found that I can’t buy the chemical xylene in NH, though I can in Vermont.(!??!!) (solvent to thin your acra-glas)
WTF? Communism!!

 

[runner]

Just to add to the confusion, the BLO you find at Home Depot is NOT the same stuff they used 80+ years ago. Whatever the Germans (and everyone else for that matter) put in their BLO significantly shortened drying times. Im sure whatever it was has been declared hazardous by today's standards. Just like the black paint the Brits used on their weapons, its nearly impossible to duplicate with todays environmental concerns.

I often hear it stated/repeated that today’s BLO is different than what was used in the 1940s. I am not saying that is not true, but how can we be so sure it was different unless someone has the ingredient
List from the “old” Blo to compare to what Home Depot sells today? Today’s blo has chemical dryers, mostly toxic, including lead, at least what I buy does.

 

[Muncher 1953]

Japan drier is pretty darn effective...

yes! containing salts of cobalt (not quite as toxic as salts of lead) that accelerate the oxidation (drying) of finishes like linseed oil. Also makes an oil finish more glossy, but the big advantage for production of rifles, is making the oil finish dry faster.

 

[Cyrano4747]

It astounds me that with all of the precision found in the german military industrial machine that there is no clear record of something that seems so crucial. I suppose, though, that it's only crucial to us today as we try to restore or care for these weapons.

I have a number of Argentine mausers, and they almost have taken a hand rubbed finish appearance. And through use and handling I suppose that is what has happened. They are not as dark as the gewehrs, though, and perhaps that's because they didn't see as much field use... that may be the darker appearance come somewhat from the oils and grime that would be encountered through extensive use in theater.

The short answer is that the myth of the precision of the German military industrial machine was just that - a myth. It was suffered a lot of inefficiencies and was plagued by all manner of problems, both new (as in endemic to the Nazi regime) and longer term baggage carried over from how things were done in the Imperial era.

Just as a random example, we tend to think of them as a modern, mechanized military but most of their soldiers went to war the way their great grandfathers did: walking to the front and towing their artillery with horses. If you really want to nerd out you can point to similar stuff in weapons and equipment design, with the uniforms in particular being hellaciously complicated and inefficient to produce compared to what a contemporary American would be wearing. And that's before we even begin to discuss the staggering, jaw dropping, world class morass that was SS manufacturing and procurement.

Throw into all this mess the fact that the end of the war was not kind to either German industry or German records. Heck, part of the reason that we know as much about the development of the K98k as we do is because a fair few documents were squirreled away by engineers and other private individuals after the war, and eventually made their way into the hands of collectors and scholars.

There are worse case scenarios - Imperial German military records were hit particularly badly by WW2 bombing and subsequently scattered to the wind - but if you have very specific technical questions details can be particularly difficult to track down. This stands in stark contrast to, for example, American weapons design in the same era. Those records tend to still exist and tend to be in archives that are accessible, leading to a much easier time of tracing development and design changes over time.

edit: thinking about it a few hours later, another good example of the inefficiencies compared to more modern systems is the non-interchangeability of many parts on K98ks and the need to number a lot of them. Now, part of this is just a degree of carrying over how it was done from earlier eras. I don't think I've ever heard of an action screw being non-interchangeable, but they sure started out numbering those to match. But if you've ever tried to drop in a safety lever you'll quickly find out how much hand fitting was still done. Compare that to more modern American weapons like the Garand or the M1 Carbine. You won't find parts serial numbered to match, because there truly was a high degree of parts interoperability. There are counter points, of course, especially when you get into the pre-WW1 American designs (see: the hand fitting needed to put a new hammer and sear in a 1911) but in general if you're looking at something the Americans designed after 1930 or so you really do see parts that can swap around relatively freely.