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Polish Eagle Vis 35 Questions

5

556CRiding

Member
I am new to this forum and I want to thank anyone in advance for taking a look at my post. I have some questions concerning a pistol I have. A brief history of how the gun came to be in my possession. My wife's grandfather was a CWO in the United States Army. He served during World War Two. He had the gun and it was passed down to his son (wife's father) when he Passed away in 1958. Her father was only 13 when his father passed, so unfortunately the history of the firearm and any stories of how was acquired was lost. He kept the gun and gifted it to is daughter in private a year before he passed away. She was 21 when she was gifted the gun and her father passed away in February 2010 a month before her 22nd birthday. My wife gifted the gun to me shortly after we were married in 2011 (yes, I feel very lucky). I sent a message to an online company that sells similar pistols and a gentleman was kind enough to provide a quick estimate of value through email and pictures and he estimated due to the firearm not having matching serial numbers would reduce the pistol's value. He was not a particular expert on the history and I appreciate him taking time to look at the gun. My knowledge is lacking in the area and I would like to better understand the pistol, history, and markings that were made on various parts of the gun. From my "google research" I found that the Polish Eagle pistols commonly had mismatched slides and barrels as they were given to the German Military briefly after takeover neglecting to go through the strict acceptance steps. I took as many detailed pictures as I could think of and put them in a google drive folder. Would the mismatched serial numbers of the barrel slide and frame lower the value? If so would it be minor or severe? Also, there are also several markings on the various parts of the pistol that it would be interesting to understand why they were put there in particular. I may be asking too much and if so thank you for at least reading. Here is a link to the google folder containing the photos:

1939 Vis Radom Polish Eagle - Google Drive

drive.google.com drive.google.com
 
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The mismatched serial numbers definitely hurt the value a lot. I would think it’s is probably only worth maybe $1500 instead of $4k + matching pistol.

The Polish eagle variants are some of the most valuable Radom pistols if they are in good condition and matching numbers.
 
I believe your research is correct, there is a known variation of Polish eagle that lacks Polish acceptance and German acceptance. They are in the late 40xxx serial range. They are known to be mismatched. There are theories on why but it seems to be the gap just before the German occupation. That being said, condition is the limiting factor with this 1939 Polish eagle. You have a pistol an advanced collector would like, but its condition is not the greatest. I am not certain on a value but the market for this variation is going to be small.
 
bmwr12 said:
The mismatched serial numbers definitely hurt the value a lot. I would think it’s is probably only worth maybe $1500 instead of $4k + matching pistol.

The Polish eagle variants are some of the most valuable Radom pistols if they are in good condition and matching numbers.
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Goodness, that is a big drop in value. Thank you for taking the time to read and share some input.
 
ugafx4 said:
I believe your research is correct, there is a known variation of Polish eagle that lacks Polish acceptance and German acceptance. They are in the late 40xxx serial range. They are known to be mismatched. There are theories on why but it seems to be the gap just before the German occupation. That being said, condition is the limiting factor with this 1939 Polish eagle. You have a pistol an advanced collector would like, but its condition is not the greatest. I am not certain on a value but the market for this variation is going to be small.
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Such a cool piece of history. Well the slide and frame would fit into that serial range (4885X and 4884X respectively). I appreciate you spending some time looking at it. Do you think the barrel may fit into that category? The number on the barrel is a digit shorter than the slide and frame 7948. That may be a big jump for it to be in the pile at the same time before being put together. It does seem to have a stamp on it that is similar to the polish eagle on the slide. It also has the number 13 on the opposite side of the serial number. I am going to have to look into some books to read up on it if I can find them. Also, if you are able to entertain, there is a mark at the bottom of the magazine that looks kinda like a “W” or “M”, that and other stamps are interesting. Any idea why that would be placed there?
 
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556CRiding said:
Such a cool piece of history. Well the slide and frame would fit into that serial range (48854 and 48848 respectively). I appreciate you spending some time looking at it. Do you think the barrel may fit into that category? The number on the barrel is a digit shorter than the slide and frame 7948. That may be a big jump for it to be in the pile at the same time before being put together. It does seem to have a stamp on it that is similar to the polish eagle on the slide. It also has the number 13 on the opposite side of the serial number. I am going to have to look into some books to read up on it if I can find them. Also, if you are able to entertain, there is a mark at the bottom of the magazine that looks kinda like a “W” or “M”, that and other stamps are interesting. Any idea why that would be placed there?
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The magazine, if it was an original Polish one would have an oval with a letter over a number on the bottom of it. Has a symbol on the back surface of it towards the bottom, then it is likely a magazine produced under German occupation.
 
It is very nice pistol and being mismatch is not an issue. As mentioned many examples in 48, 49 thousand range were assembled in rush during invasion. It never was accepted by military, Hance lack of acceptance proofs. It is all correct and considered a variant for polish collectors myself included. Don’t go for dealers talk to lower value. It is legitimate gun. For value I would put 5000 minimum. As a variant it is fairly scarce, since only two one thousand blocks include them and not all examples there were mismatched.
 
tokarev38 said:
It is very nice pistol and being mismatch is not an issue. As mentioned many examples in 48, 49 thousand range were assembled in rush during invasion. It never was accepted by military, Hance lack of acceptance proofs. It is all correct and considered a variant for polish collectors myself included. Not go for dealers talk to lower value. It is legitimate gun.
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100%. Personally I would value it for a lot more than what was mentioned above. But I am one of those whacky Polish collectors…
 
556CRiding said:
Such a cool piece of history. Well the slide and frame would fit into that serial range (48854 and 48848 respectively). I appreciate you spending some time looking at it. Do you think the barrel may fit into that category? The number on the barrel is a digit shorter than the slide and frame 7948. That may be a big jump for it to be in the pile at the same time before being put together. It does seem to have a stamp on it that is similar to the polish eagle on the slide. It also has the number 13 on the opposite side of the serial number. I am going to have to look into some books to read up on it if I can find them. Also, if you are able to entertain, there is a mark at the bottom of the magazine that looks kinda like a “W” or “M”, that and other stamps are interesting. Any idea why that would be placed there?
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Your barrel has first digit “4” omitted for space reasons, so it is from late 47xxx, which is normal.
I don’t know if you are considering selling it, but it is a highly collectible pistol among polish collectors and it seems like it is part of your family heritage. It might have some condition issues, but considering scarcity of that variant, they are acceptable for most and not a big deal I would say. Not too many of those around to choose from.
 
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To quote from York's book on the subject:

"Polish Pre-war production is generally stated to have been approximately 49,400 pistols (the latest factory historical material gives a number of 51,000) with mismatched parts in the last 2,000.

According to Still, annual production was as follows:
1936: numbers 01-5500
1937: numbers 5500-8800
1938: numbers 8800-29,000
1939: numbers 29,000-49,400

According to contributors reports and observations:
1936: 01 through 5360
1937: 5359 through 8807
1938: 8808 through 27450
1939: 27,451 through 49,014 (end quote).

Later on the same page (69), York states:
"The 'mismatched' pistols at the end of Polish production do, as an aside, show that the Poles by this time, had achieved a fair degree of parts interchangability."

All information taken from page 69, Vis Radom, A Study and Photographic Album of Polands Finest Pistol By Wm. J. York

I would think that the pistol is clearly in excess of the $2k range indicated above (and possibly much more) to the right collector.

The 'right collector' can be a strange moniker. There are K98k's for example, that have well known mistakes made during manufacturing, or were perhaps reworked during wartime, that appeal to a very narrow band of collectors. The legitimate reworked K98k is an absolute minefield of a collecting area. Yet those rifles are often traded amongst a very small group of collectors at prices rivaling or even exceeding their matching original counterparts, while many long-time K98 collectors find no interest in them.

There are some serious Vis collectors who I dare say would find this pistol very collectible, if all the various documented aspects of it check out.
 
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tokarev38 said:
It is very nice pistol and being mismatch is not an issue. As mentioned many examples in 48, 49 thousand range were assembled in rush during invasion. It never was accepted by military, Hance lack of acceptance proofs. It is all correct and considered a variant for polish collectors myself included. Don’t go for dealers talk to lower value. It is legitimate gun. For value I would put 5000 minimum. As a variant it is fairly scarce, since only two one thousand blocks include them and not all examples there were mismatched.
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Well just after a short visit to this forum and hearing from people like you, I feel like a kid on a treasure hunt. Thank you for sharing your opinion and thoughts. You are likely correct about dealers as their agenda is a little different than someone that appreciates the firearm such as yourself. Do you know amy books or places I could look to better understand some of the markings that have been put on the gun?
 
556CRiding said:
Well just after a short visit to this forum and hearing from people like you, I feel like a kid on a treasure hunt. Thank you for sharing your opinion and thoughts. You are likely correct about dealers as their agenda is a little different than someone that appreciates the firearm such as yourself. Do you know amy books or places I could look to better understand some of the markings that have been put on the gun?
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William York’s VIS book is considered the gold standard at the moment.
 
krukster86 said:
The magazine, if it was an original Polish one would have an oval with a letter over a number on the bottom of it. Has a symbol on the back surface of it towards the bottom, then it is likely a magazine produced under German occupation.
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Magazines are a strange thing, regularly being removed from the firearm. I have some law enforcement background, and there were many officers that would mark, spray paint, or engrave theirs magazines just to ensure they were able to get their own mags back after a day of training as empty mags hit the floor and are ignored as you continue on. I can’t imagine the mayhem during wartime and you just getting what is available.
 
Gringo said:
To quote from York's book on the subject:

"Polish Pre-war production is generally stated to have been approximately 49,400 pistols (the latest factory historical material gives a number of 51,000) with mismatched parts in the last 2,000.

According to Still, annual production was as follows:
1936: numbers 01-5500
1937: numbers 5500-8800
1938: numbers 8800-29,000
1939: numbers 29,000-49,400

According to contributors reports and observations:
1936: 01 through 5360
1937: 5359 through 8807
1938: 8808 through 27450
1939: 27,451 through 49,014 (end quote).

Later on the same page (69), York states:
"The 'mismatched' pistols at the end of Polish production do, as an aside, show that the Poles by this time, had achieved a fair degree of parts interchangability."

All information taken from page 69, Vis Radom, A Study and Photographic Album of Polands Finest Pistol By Wm. J. York

I would think that the pistol is clearly in excess of the $2k range indicated above (and possibly much more) to the right collector.

The 'right collector' can be a stange moniker. There are K98k's for example, that have well known mistakes made during manufacturing, or were perhaps reworked during wartime, that appeal to a very narrow band of collectors. The legitimate reworked K98k is an absolute minefield of a collecting area. Yet those rifles are often traded amongst a very small group of collectors at prices rivaling or even exceeding their matching original counterparts, while many long-time K98 collectors find no interest in them.

There are some serious Vis collectors who I dare say would find this pistol very collectible, if all the various documented aspects of it check out.
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Thank you. I am going to have to get a copy of that book.
 
556CRiding said:
Well just after a short visit to this forum and hearing from people like you, I feel like a kid on a treasure hunt. Thank you for sharing your opinion and thoughts. You are likely correct about dealers as their agenda is a little different than someone that appreciates the firearm such as yourself. Do you know amy books or places I could look to better understand some of the markings that have been put on the gun?
Click to expand...
Mentioned York’s book is the best so far and focuses only on Vis pistols with large part about pre war Polish production.
Those tiny, sometimes strange shaped marks in various locations are quality control or inspection marks used in production process during various stages. Many of them are mistery.
I’m puzzled by that mark on magazine. It may be polish and very well magazine might have been with the pistol since the beginning. Lack of usual G2 proof might not be a definitive deal breaker. While pistols were made at Radom factory, magazines were made in Warsaw. G2 proof was a military acceptance proof applied at Warsaw. Lack of it does not mean, magazine is not Polish. If switched during the war, it probably would be German occupation production.
 
tokarev38 said:
Your barrel has first digit “4” omitted for space reasons, so it is from late 47xxx, which is normal.
I don’t know if you are considering selling it, but it is a highly collectible pistol among polish collectors and it seems like it is part of your family heritage. It might have some condition issues, but considering scarcity of that variant, they are acceptable for most and not a big deal I would say. Not too many of those around to choose from.
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I have not had a chance to create a bio in the forum or introduce myself, but I am a hobby level shooter of firearms. My collector skills are lacking to say the least. If I were to consider selling the firearm, I would need to make some mental considerations weighing out pros and cons. This pistol is hidden in the back of my safe and rarely sees the light of day. If I were to sell it, it would definitely be to someone that would seem to appreciate it. Thank you for sharing and confirming some history.
 
krukster86 said:
William York’s VIS book is considered the gold standard at the moment.
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This book is also very good as an addition. Unfortunately only available in Polish. It has a lot of information about Vis that is not present in York’s book, which makes it a nice supplement to it.
 

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You have yourself a very interesting piece of history. This is a late production, literally just prior to the final days before German occupation, where the plant was grabbing parts and putting them together. There are inspector proof on both sides of your trigger guard. However, it does lack the Polish eagle proof next to the takedown lever.

It has obvious wear, use and moisture exposure, and as eluded to above, it has an occupation magazine without the oval G2.

The slide, frame and barrel are within the family of the final days of Polish reign at the Radom factory.

Having said that, your pistol is worth more than $1500 to a knowing collector.
 
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