Thought I would make a separate thread for this photo . I did post it in this thread Mauser Standard Modell K98k Short Side Rail Conversion , but there maybe some members who did not see it posted there
Photo of SS Polizei with Mauser Banner Standard Model SSR Conversion Rifle
- Thread starter Dave Roberts
- Start date
Absolut
Senior Member
Super interesting is various stuff:
- the pins in the base appear to be blank, as with your rifle
- the lever of the mount when fully attached seems to be almost fully flat/straight forward
- the scope has clear traces of having had leather caps installed - and in fact you can see them detached under the rifle on bottom
- note how the guy is using the sling and his elbow to make the rifle steady in his hands - I really wonder if he in fact is only resting the rifle in his hands
- backside caption says 1944 and Norway. Note that it seems in background we see snow, hence it must had been quite late in 1944
Edit: usually these pictures are pulled from Albums. Did you happen to ask the seller whether he has more pictures from the same album? Maybe these would help understand circumstances, exact location and exact date.
- the pins in the base appear to be blank, as with your rifle
- the lever of the mount when fully attached seems to be almost fully flat/straight forward
- the scope has clear traces of having had leather caps installed - and in fact you can see them detached under the rifle on bottom
- note how the guy is using the sling and his elbow to make the rifle steady in his hands - I really wonder if he in fact is only resting the rifle in his hands
- backside caption says 1944 and Norway. Note that it seems in background we see snow, hence it must had been quite late in 1944
Edit: usually these pictures are pulled from Albums. Did you happen to ask the seller whether he has more pictures from the same album? Maybe these would help understand circumstances, exact location and exact date.
Panzerhobbit
Registered
Hello Georg,
I agree with you on all points.
A very interesting study.
Perhaps in addition to your explanation of the caption on the picture and your assumption about the period in 1944, the note that it says: "Okt - Nov.".
(October - November.)
best regards,
Yes I asked seller all these question and answer was , No sorry .
Here is sellers reply about location
Hello Dave
There was only one Polizei Gebirgsjäger Regiment you can see the Policeeagle on the cap also the Edelweiss so it must be this unit. They where for Training in Norway before they were to Greece after the training in Yugoslavia. Hope that helps
Best regards
Konrad
I will add that Wolgang/Amberg has his doubts whether or not this description is correct or not and here is what he wrote me
Dave,
The seller says that the pictured soldier belonged to the "Polizei Gebirgsjäger Regiment 18“.
Caption says October/November 1944 in Norway.
But in 1944 this unit was no longer in Scandinavia. At that time they were slaughtering rebels/partisans in Greece and Yugoslavia.
I need to find out more about the "Police Mountain Regiment 18". As far as I know, they have never ever been in Norway. Only in Finland and they left Finland in mid 1943.
As far as I could find out, there was only one SS-Polizei Gebirgsjäger unit left in Norway in 1944. The SS-Polizei Gebirgs-Nachrichten-Kompanie 91. But why would a communication unit have a sniper rifle? According to the files of our National Archives, they did not even have a single machine gun. ;-)
I’ll let you know if I can find out more.
ATB
Wolfgang
This is fun, investigating something new.
The only problem is now I want one of those rifles.
The only problem is now I want one of those rifles.
hale1940
Canadian Fabio
I've got a really nice Standard Modell, send me a nice mount and a scope and I'll make one for you.
But seriously, really interesting thread so far. Can't wait to see what else comes of it. I didn't even realize there were Gebirgsjäger Polizei units.
I actually have a few more period sniper photos showing other Gerbirgsjager Polizei Snipers most or maybe all area earlier and all have SSR with P. Kohler scopes & mounts
Here is latest reply from Wolfgang . I have to say its great to have friends/mentor like Wolfgang he has helped me so much over my past 20+ yrs with info and guidance which without his guidance I would have surely made some bad decisions this is just one more example of him helping a friend .
Dave,
the history of police mountain units is not that easy to explain.
Police mountain battalion 302 that later became part of the police mountain regiment 18 was in Norway. But not the regiment. The battalion 302 left Norway in June 1942. In late 1944 there was only one police mountain unit left in Norway. The SS-Polizei Gebirgs-Nachrichten-Kompanie 91.
The police had more mountain units than the regiment 18.
I’ll have to look through all their history concerning Norway and the date.
I’m in contact with two of the most respected historians when it comes to 3R police history.
Please give me another day or two, to find out more.
ATB
Wolfgang
Dave,
the history of police mountain units is not that easy to explain.
Police mountain battalion 302 that later became part of the police mountain regiment 18 was in Norway. But not the regiment. The battalion 302 left Norway in June 1942. In late 1944 there was only one police mountain unit left in Norway. The SS-Polizei Gebirgs-Nachrichten-Kompanie 91.
The police had more mountain units than the regiment 18.
I’ll have to look through all their history concerning Norway and the date.
I’m in contact with two of the most respected historians when it comes to 3R police history.
Please give me another day or two, to find out more.
ATB
Wolfgang
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Absolut
Senior Member
Really, it took you until this picture to want to have one of these rifles?
Whenever or wherever that’s a fantastic photo. Not often such detail can be made in on a rifle.
I don't believe Amberg/Wolfgang is disputing the Oct/Nov 1944 period rather he's not convinced if it is actually Reg.18 in Norway .
From his earlier research Reg.18 was no longer in Norway at this time . It could be another Reg. which is what he is trying to determine .
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Oliver
Active member
Hi guys,
I found something about the Polizei Regiment.
"When planning for the establishment of the only police mountain infantry regiment of the Order Police began in January 1942, the Caucasus region was intended as the area of operation. After the German Wehrmacht did not succeed in gaining this area as part of their summer offensive in 1942, the unit, which had since been renamed the Police Mountain Infantry Regiment 18, was first transferred to Finland in December 1942 after a brief gang fight in the Upper Carniola from August to October 1942. where the unit, which had been renamed SS-Polizei-Gebirgsjäger-Regiment 18 in February 1943 according to the decree of the Reichsführer SS and chief of the German police, after a nearly three-month training and familiarization phase, from March 1943 with the SS mountain division "North", to which he was tactically subordinate, under the XVIII. Mountain corps of the 20th mountain army deployed in the Kiestinki sector.
But even this use should not last long. Transported from Karelia to the Danzig area by the end of July 1943, the regiment was transferred to Greece for security tasks, where it arrived fully assembled at Lianikladion near Larissa by the evening of August 15, 1943.
After the Italian capitulation on September 8, 1943, the German Wehrmacht also had to take over the previous Italian occupation zones in the Balkans and in Greece. This also included the islands in the Aegean previously occupied by Italian divisions of the "Armee Egeo".
On September 17, 1943, the III. Battalion of the 18th SS Police Mountain Infantry Regiment from a coastal defense sector near Glyfada, south-east of Athens, where it had been deployed to the 11th Air Force Field Division since early September 1943, and was ordered to report to Commander Admiral Attika. Here the battalion was given the task of disarming the Italian troops lying on Euboea and the Cyclades in the strength of one division with the U-Jagdflottille 21 and the Attica coastal protection flotilla and bringing them to the mainland. "
"After the heavy fighting in the Belgrade area at the beginning of October 1944, the SS Police Mountain Infantry Regiment 18 was also involved in combat groups of the Wehrmacht in the retreat battles in the Balkans.
End of October till end of November 1944 the regiment are in heavy fights north-east, in the area of Erdevig – Kuzmin." (near Belgrad at the river Save)
Conclusion:
So, the regiment has never been in Norway. Earlier units, which became later part of the regiment - like the Police battaillon 312 (the later 1.st Bataillon/18. SS PolGebRgt), was stationed in Norway, 1940/41.
If the police hasn't any sniper rifles, it could be the picture is from early 1943, when they had a training phase with the 6. SS Mountain Division "North". They would have sniper rifles, definitely.
We do not know, when the holder of the photograph has labelt it.
Pol. Bat. 302, not 312.
Pol. Bat. 312 became IInd Bat. Pol. Geb. Reg. 18
Pol. Bat. 325 became IIIrd Bat. Pol. Geb. Reg. 18
When Pol. Bat. 302 left Norway in mid 1942, it was the only Police unit allowed to wear the Edelweiß badge.
Oliver
Active member
Amberg - you are absolutely right. It has to be Pol.Btl. 302. I's a typing error.
Great information thank you sharing this information . Wolf thank you for doing the deep dive investigation , great work for both members .
I finally had some time to dig into this. Assuming the inscription is correct, the only possible units are SS-Pol.Rgt 7 or SS-Pol.Rgt 27. Both transferred to Norway in early 1943 and spent the rest of the war there.
As for the Edelweiß, it looks like all Polizei units in Norway received some amount of ski and mountain training, which makes sense when you think about it. It seems at least some could then wear the Edelweiß. I've attached some photos from an album of a man in the 7.Pol.Kp of II./SS.Pol.Rgt 7 (Pol-Btl 317). You can many are wearing it on their caps.
As for the Edelweiß, it looks like all Polizei units in Norway received some amount of ski and mountain training, which makes sense when you think about it. It seems at least some could then wear the Edelweiß. I've attached some photos from an album of a man in the 7.Pol.Kp of II./SS.Pol.Rgt 7 (Pol-Btl 317). You can many are wearing it on their caps.
Attachments
Oliver
Active member
The Edelweiß was donated by Emperor Franz Josef I., of Austria-Hungarian, in 1907 for his Mountain troops. Troops of the German Alpen Korps, who fought together with Austro-Hungarian units, against Italy in the Alps, were allowed to wear the Edelweiß, since 1915, too.
The Wehrmacht donated it in 1939 for Mountain troops of the Army and the Mountain troops of the Waffen-SS had their own Edelweiß introduced in 1943.
Both are similar, but different. See the pictures!
On the pictures Dave has postet on 27th July, you can identify the Edelweiß as one of the Waffen-SS.
Attachments
Since Police Battalion 302 (sometimes called Polizei-Ski-Bataillon 302 ) was equipped with mountain gear due to the Norway mission, the men were allowed to wear the Edelweiss Badge II (flat embossed and aluminum colored) on the left flap of their ski, mountain, or winter hats beginning November 1, 1941.
Would it be safe to say that this Pol-Btl 317 would be the most likely candidate of which Btl/Bat the Sniper in my photo belonged or would it be one of the other Wolfgang/Amberg mentions ????. I want to be sure I label the photo with most accurate and correct description .
I want to say Thank You to everyone who took the time to look into this !!!!!!!!!!!!
