Objective Mount Sniper Rifle .

[Absolut]

How can we say for certain that the rifles were assembled there? Just because the scope parts are from Greifelt does not necessarily mean the rifles were assembled as snipers there. These snipers are still a big mystery.

Equipping a rifle with a Suhler Einhakmontage (that is basically what this mount is) is nothing what an Arsenal would be able to do. You need highly educated people to do this. The front and rear base need to be in 100% exact position to each other. And you also need to disassemble the scopes, solder the rings and then reassemble the scopes. This is pure gunsmithing at its finest.

I do need to admit that it therefore was my pure assumption that if a mount coming from Suhl, bearing the name of the largest gun company in Suhl (they even made complete rifles and whatever parts you needed for any other gunsmiths) it would also be the same company who has had the mount fitted to a rifle. They would be in the position to do this while the organisation - whoever bought them - would not had been in the position to do this nor would it make much sense to buy the mount from them and have another gunsmith mount it.

So at this point there is no proof for this, but it is the most plausible explanation and I have not heard an argument speaking against this. But please let me know why you think the above!



PS: small detail, the name "Greifelt" originates from the "Greif", a mythological creature which is a mixture of various animals. Most times the head of a bird of prey was combined with the body of a lion. This is also visible in the logo of company Greifelt & Co.

 

[mdarnell19]

It is possible that they assembled them as you believe. However, the process you just described is what Mauser did for years with the turret. They didn't have to send their rifles to someone else to mount the scope (likely because the scopes arrived with the rings already attached). But that is what makes these rifles so interesting. Are they Army rifles that were given to the Waffen SS and then the SS had the scopes mounted (perhaps in the method you mentioned)? This is what we need to figure out.

 

[Peter-Paul]

You need highly educated people to do this. The front and rear base need to be in 100% exact position to each other. And you also need to disassemble the scopes, solder the rings and then reassemble the scopes. This is pure gunsmithing at its finest.

This is an old thread, but I can confirm this. I made one of these snipers over the past three weekends from a 1939 JP Sauer & Sohn Russian Capture parts gun, yugo stock, and Hensoldt scope. There was a long list of things I had to do to get everything to come together, fit, and keep the scope on in a rock-solid way.

The amount of filing of the claws, checking, and double checking before I silver soldered everything together was insane. I can now understand why they would number the scopes to the mounts or rifles. Everything had to be level, and the slightest adjustment in one part would put the rest of the parts out of alignment.

Final fitting was done with VERY CAREFUL filing of the claws, followed by an iterative process of checking for fit.

I even had to make screws to fit the rear base, I just drilled and tapped the rear receiver only yesterday (not yet pictured).

 

[Dave Roberts]

There is one Particular Process that is done when building these Sniper Rifles that is not likely known nor would it likely be noticed when just looking at a photo or in hand unless You were aware of it before hand . It has to do with the Rear Base . The Rear Base was not just fit to Receiver . The Receiver also had Machining done to it to accept the Claws of Rear Mount . The Overall Length of Claws are Longer than Base is High which protrude beyond the the Bases . The openings for the Claws in Rear Base actually extend down into the Rear of the Receiver . If You look at the Photo I attached You may be able to see this is so . I did not notice this fact until I measured the Length of the Claws on Rear and notice the the Rear Base appeared to be shorter in height than Claw were long . Best Regards

 

[Amberg]

Very interesting detail!!
I didn't know anything about it. Have to have a close look at my Bavarian WWI claw mount sniper rifles. But I think the rear bases of the Bavarian rifles are higher than the WWII claw mount bases.
I only know of one other sniper rifle that needed machining on the rear receiver bridge. The WWI Goerz 4x rifles had a hole drilled to accept the stud of the rear ring.
Thanks!

 

[mdarnell19]

Very interesting Dave and Amberg. Thanks for sharing. Something new to look for.

 

[Dave Roberts]

Very interesting detail!!
I didn't know anything about it. Have to have a close look at my Bavarian WWI claw mount sniper rifles. But I think the rear bases of the Bavarian rifles are higher than the WWII claw mount bases.
I only know of one other sniper rifle that needed machining on the rear receiver bridge. The WWI Goerz 4x rifles had a hole drilled to accept the stud of the rear ring.
Thanks!

Wolfgang that is very interesting it appears there was a good amount material was removed from the Rear Receiver Bridge and the Stud opening for Rear Ring goes clear through Receiver Bridge . I wonder how much clearance there is from Underside of Rear Ring Stud and Top of Bolt Body .

In regards to the Objective Mount Rifle the Cutout for Rear Claws does not go all the way through Rear of Receiver Bridge . This is a good way to to help identify Originals from Fakes . Both the 243/1939 and BSW 1939 Objective Mount Rifles have this Cutout on Rear Receiver Bridge .

 

[Amberg]

I wonder how much clearance there is from Underside of Rear Ring Stud and Top of Bolt Body .

Not much I guess.
I'll find out and let you know.

 

[Absolut]

To my knowledge the lateral adjustable front part should also be milled into the receiver ring. Have you ever pushed out that part on your rifle Dave?

 

[Peter-Paul]

Thank you for showing this! That is some serious expert work there on these original rifles. It's beyond the scope of what I can do on my back porch. Wow!

 

[Dave Roberts]

To my knowledge the lateral adjustable front part should also be milled into the receiver ring. Have you ever pushed out that part on your rifle Dave?

Georg to answer Your question , I have had the Base removed from the Saddle on the 243/1939 , I do not recall with 100% certainty if the Front Receiver Ring was Milled Down or Not . Without Removing the Base and doing Measurements and Line of Sight from Top of Receiver to bottom of Front Base and Top of Saddle were Base Sits the Receiver Ring would had to have been Milled to accept the Saddle & Base .

 

[Absolut]

Dug up some old pics of my Suhler Einhakmontage barreled action ... receiver bridge at rear milled to accomodate the base (quite obvious, thought all would know that?), and I also removed the front locking part what made it obvious that that receiver had been milled to accomodate the front base as well.

 

[Hercules]

Dug up some old pics of my Suhler Einhakmontage barreled action ... receiver bridge at rear milled to accomodate the base (quite obvious, thought all would know that?), and I also removed the front locking part what made it obvious that that receiver had been milled to accomodate the front base as well.

Interesting Georg. Thanks for posting. Nice to see original stuff in various states of condition resulting from it’s use. Nice to see how the Germans made them.

Do you have an objective mount scope for this?

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Absolut]

I had posted more pictures and detailed description of this rifle here: http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread...EM-Saddle-mount-(-quot-objective-mount-quot-)

We know from pictures there were two types of Suhler Claw Mount. One for the Army and one for the SS. Yet we don't know which one is which. I still don't know if my "rifle" is an official WWII conversion which was later sportered, or a post WWII conversion. I however doubt it being post WWII, it would had looked differently (engravings, etc.) and they would had also scrubbed the markings under the bases, not just those outside the bases. And since mine is different from the one of Dave, yet very similar in being rather simple variants of the Suhler Claw Mount and both carrying rifle serials on the underside, I suspect that these are the two different samples that we try to identify.

There are quite a few scopes I have with Suhler Claw mount, yet none I would without doubt identify as being officially issued in WWII.

 

[MarkDD]

Hi,
Don't know if they were any good but these 2 rifles were sold recently in the uk.

 

[Amberg]

Wolfgang that is very interesting it appears there was a good amount material was removed from the Rear Receiver Bridge and the Stud opening for Rear Ring goes clear through Receiver Bridge .

Dave,
I did not find time to dig out my Goerz4x rifles yet. Sorry!
But I had time to dig through some old shots.
My post WWI Danzig sporter has a hole in the rear receiver bridge as well.
AND: please have a close look at this one:
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread...arked-Rifles-and-M1916-Glasvisier-Study/page6
pix247159689.jpg
Thanks
Wolfgang

 

[Dave Roberts]

Thank You Wolfgang . This is interesting to say the least . One would ask why go all the way through receiver . Why not just shorten the Rear Lug on Upper Ring . I suspect it had to do with Locking Block on the Base and the Ring Stud had to be a certain length to get a Solid Lock Engagement . Again Thank You for photo .

 

[vaughn99]

Hello,

This is why Robert in Austria when he made the repro Georz Semi Turret Sniper bases he made original height for restoring snipers and he also made a second version where the bases were taller so you didn't have to machine out the clearance in the back/rear receiver for folks who didn't have the machinery and wanted to make repro/shooters using scopes with rings already attached.

Later
Vaughn

 

[xqsme]

Thank You Wolfgang . This is interesting to say the least . One would ask why go all the way through receiver . Why not just shorten the Rear Lug on Upper Ring . I suspect it had to do with Locking Block on the Base and the Ring Stud had to be a certain length to get a Solid Lock Engagement . Again Thank You for photo .

my 1938 code 42

 

[Dave Roberts]

Nice looking Rifle , but sorry to tell you that this is not an original WW2 Objective Mount Sniper Rifle . There are 2 variations of the Objective Mount Sniper Rifles the SS and Heer neither of these had the front base dovetailed into the Receiver .

Example pics added 1st 3 pics are SS type and last pic is Heer/Army type