New Sniper photos to discuss- when was this one made?

[whitehat]

Hi all
Well Dave and I had some good conversations....such a deep library of good information in his brain. Found out that a short rail Standard model sniper I had for many years and was not sure of ...ended up in his gun room and even in a book recently. Wish now i had kept it ..darn it

Any way...now I have this other "sniper" I picked up for pennies.....and cant figure out when and for what purpose it was made.....this is what Dave suggested I do:

"You could Post the Rifle at the Forum it would make good discussion and You can learn a lot about the Proof marks and numbering when were and who did this there are so many very knowledgable collectors there . I think it is a Interesting Rifle .

Mark as to time period of Scope , It is very strange that there is NO Serial Number Zeiss Serial Numbered ever Scope . It could be hidden under front ring . From the Style it appears to be typical of Pre WWII and WWII type . but without a serial number approximate year is impossible ."

So will let the experts here teach me a few things If thats ok?

Here are the photos...

 

[whitehat]

More photos....notice please the "A" in a circle on the bolt and the bold release screw...what does that proof signify? You may not be able to see it...but there is lots of fire blue small parts and screws with age-fade etc

 

[Humbarger]

Are there no eagles or inspectors stamps on the rifle? These don't seam to be any on the rings. Can you post a photo of the left side of the receiver & an overall view if the rifle? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Carl ziess jena post war east German manufacture? Very clean gun. Thanks for sharing it with us.

 

[mrfarb]

The engraved serial number on the scope mount is enough to call it questionable for WW2 German- as to the Circle A components, common on Standard Modell rifles. These are rejected components used in commercial production. Me personally, I don't think the rifle is period.

 

[whitehat]

Hamburger
Lots of eagles...as shown in photos....take some time...There are three different Eagle waa63 proofs on the buttplate, center recoil bolt...middle band....round stock donut...etc. Total of about 8 military proofs on stock metal....so it went through a mauser refurb program in late 1930s based on the Waa63 proofs.....just like my short rail Standard modell short rail...now on Dave's wall.

WHy would so many mauser late 1930 era proofs be on a Standard modell?

Interesting....I agree we dont see others like this one....a funny fish

But it fits in some place...the work is top Q and old world....nothing is "as new" on the gun etc...
Precision fitting of all parts. There is no drama here since for what I paid for it I am happy whit it as it is
suppose it could be a hunting rifle made after the war...but why the military proofs and the numbered scope ring?

 

[Absolut]

Hey Mark, if you look closely at the engraving on the scope you can still see the "Z" below the "Carl Zeiss Jena", which was originally part of the "Zielvier" engraving.

 

[whitehat]

Good cathc! Never saw that!
Now... does that mean something?...please fully describe you thought So the scope has been recycled by the factory...? Since only the factory would sand off the old Zeiss markings and place a post war Zeiss marking...or not? But still makes no sense....this was not a post war DDR bring back after the fall of the Iron curtain

I guess this is a stumper for the forum...no one has seen this one before at least...I like to introduce new things like this...I do the same on the luger forum...there is a lot out there we still have not seen yet

 

[whitehat]

Well here is a full view

 

[Humbarger]

Very nice looking rifle whatever it is.

 

[whitehat]

SUrely someone out there knows everything about every sniper ever made...you guys are the best in the world!...this cant be a one off...its all German!

 

[mrfarb]

SUrely someone out there knows everything about every sniper ever made...you guys are the best in the world!...this cant be a one off...its all German!

How do you explain the inconsistencies I pointed out? That is the issue- it's up to you to prove it's real. The engraved serial number is the biggest, and add the milled out section in the stock, probably to remove a number that didn't match.

If someone asked my opinion on that rifle I would tell them to pass. However, I'm sure you could find someone that would think it has a chance- I see those guys bid on Gunbroker every day.

 

[vaughn99]

Hello,

the mounts are a reproduction of the mauser oberndorf double square bridge commecial rifles. A real double square bridge receivers will have the bases as 1 with the recevier not a solder add on with the rings you see here matted. this rifle has been made recently you can see that all the solder flux is rusting the rear base and release button and front base soldered to the front receiver ring. the rifle look reblued recenly as as the blue was not hot enough and has a purple tone present. these mounts were made by a guy in Illinios and has a web page www.clawmounts.com, this is his work. he high polishes all the screws etc but the mounts are bead blast finish like these present from castings i believe. you can also order them with the bevel cut on the rings or not beveled its 100.00 option! The zeiss scope has be reworked recently. see pic below of my set I purchased with bevel 650.00 with out like mine 550.00. see pics

later
vaughn

 

[mrfarb]

Well, there you go - a 100% made up fake.

 

[whitehat]

Well there you go....now I know where those bases came from...I knew you guys could do it....thank you kindly .....but if its so easy to find that these bases are modern..then I guess it s poor way to make a WWII sniper...if you can just google the maker etc

See Dave...we got an answer...still cant figure who would ruin a perfectly good Standard model just to try inexpertly fool someone:

And who would bother to take off an old Zeiss scope marking ...just to put on an east German Zeiss marking (JENA)??/ there is still lots of things here that make no sense.

 

[vaughn99]

Hello,

I am a little confused why do you think this is a east german zeiss?? is it becasue its Jena marking?? if that is why then that is not correct. all the scopes are marked this way from 1921-1945. your scope has a faint "Z" unscrubbed under the Zeiss Logo as previously mentioned. this Z was for the marking "Zielvier". the scope serial in completely gone but with the shown features of the type saddle paint job, skip line knurling on the elevation dial, and the best telling of the rear ocular has a lens screw present retaining the glass puts this scope above the 40,000 serial range. they started production with the old crimp lens retaining method, then 2 piece rear ocualr housing then this varient the lens screw. the scope might of had some good rust present as you can see by the polish markings present and a few pitting missed it was reworked so they might of gotten overzelious. if you have pennies in this rifle you could break it up keep the nice Standard Modell and make some coin on the parts. uses sets of the MO DQB sell for 400 on ebay when you find them, Zeiss scope if Reticule #1 go for 300 easy.

later
vaughn

 

[whitehat]

Thank you your kind remarks

1) Mail #3 suggests its a East German ...Jena.....so thats where I got that idea from....you guys are the experts...please read what each person said. I take all comments as gospel ...a bad habit I know

2) How on earth do you take off the scope mounts without making a complete mess of a a minty Standard Modell pray tell??

3) The receiver is a perfect black blue high polish (as my other Standard Modells) with a contrasting more stain like finish on the barrel...so not dipped etc.
Bolt safety does appear slightly purple...so its possible that was reblued...cant be sure.

4) Scope optics are super clear and a impressive (3 reticale) to look through...as if new..

 

[whitehat]

Again...any ideas how to take off these mounts without marring the soldiered surface?

 

[vaughn99]

Hello,

To remove the scope you have to unscrew rear ocular. you also need to remove the saddle. then loosen the 2 ring screws and will slide off. oil scope body gingerly BEFORE you remove the saddle don't want crap on the reticule, as it will help slide off if a wee bit tight fit to reduce or not scratch the scope tube/body bluing. with the rust presnt on the body I hope they didn't solder the rings to the scope body for recoil issues. if they are indeed solder the whole scope will need to be disassembeled.

I have removed such items before. you heat the bases with a MAP gas torch and apply heat ONLY to the bases and move it around to heat the base to spread the heat evenly. use a piece of wood and just tap them and they should fall off as long as the original installer used soft solder like they were supose to. I have seen ppl use 500 stuff and that can be tricky as steel start tempering at about 460/480 IF it was indeed soft solder you should now have two shiny silver squares. this is were time and patience will take hold. I have been doing it for some time so i HAVE THE FEEL for it but with enough pressure you ONLY remove the solder from the surface. hope fully the installer didn't go SUPER FILE when installed as you need to of had the bluing gone to install the mounts. I use 300/400 grit paper or just use blue remover on qtips so it doesn't completely mark up the metal. once cleaned up probably 5 hrs or so of labor. the best blend is to belguim blue the now exposed areas to blend in with the original blue or bluing present. I know I wrote a few sentances but it takes a ton of time. many people get to man handle with the removal of solder and scar the metal just trying to removed the solder. the solder is soft and steel is very hard so with the right pressure you can FEEL when you have enough pressure of removing the solder and not scaring the steel. now with all that said does EVERY ONE come out perfect NO. allot of signs/marking found after this restro are all in how the rifle was preped in the the install stage of the mounts and what was used. the other problem you don't know till you have already started the project and see what is under the mounts, seen ppl use dremal tools and made a mess so a pefect clean up is almost impossible.

later
vaughn

 

[whitehat]

Thank you for your kind response....so its impossible..the Std. Modell has perfect high polish and blue..and it will show any work at all on its surface.. Its now just a high quality fun gun...I have 200 other collectible items to be proud of.....and this is why I was happy to finally get a SC sniper straight from the vet...no drama there