New Member & CE44 K98k

[Rolf]

Hi everyone,

If everything goes to plan, I should come into possession of an all-matching CE44 K98k (my first and only all-matching K98k) in the weeks to come and I thought this forum was definitely the place to post photos of it as it is entirely devoted to the K98k rifle.

The rifle seems to have lost most of its bluing so it won't be a beauty queen in my opinion. It has an "r" block serial number and a Mauserwerk Oberndorf laminated stock (WaA135) but has had a few notches carved into the stock - the notches most probably were carved at the end of WW2 or shortly after because they exhibit the same patina as the stock. The rifle was found leaning against a tree after the Germans had retreated from the (then German) town of Oberhomburg (Westmark) at the very end of November 1944. Its present owner (who got it directly from the man who found it back in 1944) told me that the notches might be related to the number of kills made with it and that it could explain why the rifle was left behind, as the chances of being captured by US troops were high at the time. The rifle may just as well have been used right after the war and the notches would then refer to the number of deer killed with it. I myself rather doubt a WW2 German soldier would have taken the liberty of messing with his rifle in such a way.

I have snapped a few shots of the rifle but, due to poor lighting, they're a bit disappointing. I will post better ones as soon as the rifle is mine.





Although the stock is definitely original to the barreled action, I wonder whether this could be an older Mauser stock as the P marking (according to what I have read) was phased out around 1941/1942.


Regards,

Will

 

[grimlin13]

Welcome to the forum. You should repost this in the " Mauser Rifles 1933 to 1945 -The Nazi Period" sub-forum. It will get more views and perhaps a few opinions.

 

[RyanE]

Unfortunately, the stock is not original to that gun. Its from a very late 1941 or very early 1942 Mauser Obendorf rifle. Possibly a gg block byf41.

 

[Rolf]

The stock is numbered to the barreled action and the serial number on it does look original to me. Could it be that Sauer & Sohn sometimes used older Mauser stocks for their rifles in 1944?

 

[Rolf]

Upon closer inspection of my pics, I think the stock may have been renumbered to the barreled action (the receiver bears no serial number): the 2 of the last two digits looks as if it had been restamped on a 4.














At any rate, this rifle is definitely in the configuration it was found in at the end of 1944. Now the question I would like to ask is whether any such make-do stocks have been documented for 1944 Sauer & Sohn production?

I must say the stock puzzles me: on the one hand the rifle must have been in a like new condition by the end of November 1944, so I assume its stock wouldn't break that easily, but, on the other hand, the stock does show signs of having been renumbered to the gun. To make things a bit more complicated, there are those notches on the stock (I didn't take photos of them, as I didn't quite believe they might be 'kill marks'): you can tell they were cut into the wood with a knife and that they were done a very long time ago, maybe before the stock was refinished (the WaA135 eagles on the stock have lost their sharpness) and fitted to the Sauer & Sohn barreled action. So now I am wondering why the Germans would salvage such a stock and use it for another rifle, the more so as the whole thing was done with a certain degree of professionalism, namely by renumbering the stock. I must stress here that I am almost 100% sure the rifle was not tampered with: it is in its original November 1944 configuration.

 

[mauser202]

Definitely not the stock it left the factory with. What makes you 100% sure it was that way in 11/44?

 

[Rolf]

Well, I must admit the present owner is somebody I trust and he assured me that he had left the rifle exactly as he had gotten it from the person who had found it back in 1944, and also that the original owner would not have altered it in any way.
I am no expert, to be sure, so I would be interested to hear (or read!) your opinion on the renumbered stock: the 'new' serial number does look old, so do you think it might have been stamped into the wood in 1944 by some German field amorer or, on the contrary, do you think it may be some counterfeiter's attempt at force-matching the Mauser stock?

Judging by the WaA135 eagles on the buttstock, the rifle did undergo some refinishing work, though.






Sorry for the quality of the pictures: they're the best I have at the moment!



The metal fittings come from the original rifle and are number matching, so I suppose the barreled action went directly from its Sauer & Sohn stock to the Mauser one.
I suppose I won't get to the bottom of that thing until I can check that the inside of the wood shows some traces of having been renumbered.

 

[PizzaBert]

Do you have photos under the wood?

 

[Rolf]

I haven't taken it apart, if that is what you mean, but I intend to do so before I buy it.
Would there be any tell-tale signs to look for?
If the stock hadn't shown signs of having been renumbered to the rifle at a very early stage, I would have dismissed the whole setup as some kind of put-together, but the renumbering does look old to me.

 

[luftpirate]

No offense but that is a "battle of the bulge" story if Ive ever heard one. The stocks been refinished, and not original to gun so you may want to consider passing on this if youre looking for an actual matching rifle.

 

[Rolf]

No offense but that is a "battle of the bulge" story if Ive ever heard one. The stocks been refinished, and not original to gun so you may want to consider passing on this if youre looking for an actual matching rifle.

I think I'll take your advice - there are too many uncertainties about the rifle. The owner of the rifle does have another such K98k, a byf 44 rifle, but he does not seem willing to sell it.

 

[Rolf]

Here are a few more pictures.

 

[luftpirate]

That stock looks questionable as well.

 

[tsmgguy]

Sauer serial numbered their stocks and handguards inside of the barrel channel on their new rifles. Could this one have a replacement Mauser Oberndorf stock?

 

[Rolf]

I don't know about the inside markings of the Mauser stock that is on the CE 44 rifle. What I can say is that the byf 44 rifle is number matching inside and out, so I am surprised its stock may be questionable.

 

[PizzaBert]

I don't know about the inside markings of the Mauser stock that is on the CE 44 rifle. What I can say is that the byf 44 rifle is number matching inside and out, so I am surprised its stock may be questionable.

Show pictures! I want to see

 

[Rolf]

I didn't take any pictures of the inside of the handguard and stock, unfortunately, but, apart from the matching numbers, I remember there was a number stamped in a greenish color on the inside of the handguard.

 

[Rolf]

To go back to my original post (the CE 44 K98k), I am still puzzled by that Mauser stock, in particular by the fact that it was stamped to the number of the Sauer & Sohn rifle and that whoever did that stamping did it a very long time ago - is there the remotest possibility for the job to have been done in 1944 or is the whole rifle a blatant put-together? What do you think would be a fair price for such a rifle if I do buy it as a mere shooter in the end?

 

[PizzaBert]

To go back to my original post (the CE 44 K98k), I am still puzzled by that Mauser stock, in particular by the fact that it was stamped to the number of the Sauer & Sohn rifle and that whoever did that stamping did it a very long time ago - is there the remotest possibility for the job to have been done in 1944 or is the whole rifle a blatant put-together? What do you think would be a fair price for such a rifle if I do buy it as a mere shooter in the end?

Most true armorer replacements would be unnumbered and/ or have a single proof or maker mark on the keel.

The stock on this Sauer is highly atypical and, as others have mentioned, is certainly not “as-issued”. Is it possible that the stock was replaced in the field by a desperate Wehrmacht armorer? Yes. Is it probable that it was replaced post war? Yes.

It’s impossible to know who changed the stocks or who did the work. So technically it is possible it was a period repair as you ask. However, it is typically not favorable to have to “explain” marking discrepancies.

 

[Rolf]

Thank you very much indeed for this thorough explanation