New K98az Questions

[Sport10990]

Hey everyone,

Today I drove to a gun show not far from home but I decided to check out some of the local shops as well. Found this and thought about it, and after the gun show, I went back and picked it up. It's a 1915 Erfurt K98az and it is all matching. The bore I would rate as a very good with some shine, little frosting, and strong lands and grooves. I think its very good for the age. I took it all apart and and got the rust away. Story on it is a woman brought it in for consignment a week ago and it was brought back by her grandfather. It has no import marks and is duffel cut and is somewhat repaired (looks to be an old repair) with kind of the best way i can describe it as "staples" even though I know its not really that. Upon inspection, it is all matching down to the screws. The "story" is that on the buttstock, that's blood and he never cleaned it off after returning. Of course, never buy the story, but it sure looks like blood and its been on there A LONG TIME. Dude could have just cut his hand but who knows. Also looks like on the right side of the buttstock some finish is missing to where the "blood" could have dripped down. Definitely does look like some liquid did drip down it. It came with an original sling, muzzle protector, and bayonet, sheath and frog. The bayonet is a nazi era and is serial numbered 5088 and the sheath is 6088 (weird!). Bolt Is in the white as it should be. I did find one stamp on the bottom of the barrel that is covered by the wood that I have a question on. It reads "B.S.I. 1 6 0" is this a unit marking? Stock is marking in the channel and on the butt. There is no 1920 rebuild or Weimar markings I can see. Any other pictures needed can be requested. So i guess my questions are if these could be answered:

-Is it a coincidence its a single numeral off on the bayo?
-Is that a unit marking? Seems to be a weird location.
-Should the stock have take down disc and finger grooves (Ive seen some that do and some that dont on google)
-Is this a correct sling for this rifle?
-What kind of value would you put on this rifle?
-What screw do I need to go in the rear band where the duffel cut currently is?

I've thought about getting the duffel cut repaired again more professionally and modern too. Thanks!

 

[Sport10990]

More photos

 

[Sport10990]

Last batch of photos

 

[Warrior1354]

First off thank you for the great picture data, not many Kar98a carbines are posted with barrel codes. Being they can be tricky to take apart if you don't know what your doing. I'm sure Paul greatly appreciates the data. And no the B.S.I. 1 6 0 marking is not a unit marking. But the maker who produced the barrel and the lot of Steel that was used.

If your carbine was unit marked it will be on the top of the buttplate. I would like to see pictures of the sling and muzzle cover those are scarce accessories to find and when you do they are not cheap either.

As I stated it is a good looking carbine, plus finding an all matching Kar98a still in it's Imperial trim is not easy. It is a scarce endeavor to find one like that. I only have one in my collection same year as your's by the way but have looked for many more over the years. Have seen very few and many with alot of problems. Unfortunately many of these carbines were butchered long ago and turned into sporters, being they were liked by many for being light and handy. And yes there is a special screw to use for your lower barrel band I may have one I will have to check.

Again thank you for sharing your Kar98a carbine.

 

[Sport10990]

Thanks Warrior. If you do have an extra screw I would appreciate it. My understanding is that the receiver was blued? (I thought it was in the white but after research it looks like the finish is still barely there). I’m on my way to the range with it now and can get those pictures when I get there. What value would you put on this rifle. I think I got a good deal on it.

 

[Sport10990]

Warrior

Sling has 9 holes for buckle. Looks to be 45 dated. What kind of sling is it and the value on that and the muzzle protector?

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[Loewe]

Some answers below, in bold, - try and take a better picture of the receiver serial, the suffix in particular, also the right buttstock acceptance under the cypher. The bolt bottom flat also, - notice the bolt serial, this is the top flat, the exact opposite (under) is the bottom flat and the fireproof and acceptance resides here, try and take a picture of it if you can. Any markings on the buttplate and or stock might reveal something about its past, this is where ordnance work is documented (while very rare, if it had a unit marking it would also be on the buttplate)

To answer any questions regarding the bayonet you will have to show its markings. The resin grips and release suggest a type III (WWII), so possibly not original to the rifle. Nothing about this rifle suggests German service after 1918, which is a big plus, - it is possible someone replaced the bayonets grips, though it is more likely the bayonet has no common history with the rifle, at least nothing related to German service. I saw nothing that suggests this rifle remained in German service, no re-bluing, no re-serialing, no upgrades of any kind (it is next to impossible for this rifle, if it stayed in German hands, not to be upgraded and reblued..), all parts appear factory, major ones anyway. Nice rifle, - be glad this rifle didn't go into the Republican era... BTW, this is a Kar.98a, not a Kar.98AZ (no such thing exists, though a trials rifle had a similar designation).

-Is it a coincidence its a single numeral off on the bayo?

You would have to show the bayonet clearly to answer any questions regarding it.

-Is that a unit marking? Seems to be a weird location.

If referring to the BSI 160, it isn't a unit marking. Specifically it identifies the steel maker and the steel lot, in this case BSI=Bergische Stahl-Industrie, Erfurt made or finished the barrel, typically barrels are delivered as semi-finished blanks, the actual "maker" of the barrel is usually the rifle maker; in this period most rifle makers made most of their components, though during the war sub-contracting was done, especially for key "time consuming" components.

-Should the stock have take down disc and finger grooves (Ive seen some that do and some that dont on google)

Grips and take downs ferrule typically are not seen this early, typically no maker before 1916 will have them, though take downs could (almost always) be added if the rifle stayed in German hands long enough, rifles that passed through an ordnance shop could have picked up the take down modification. This rifle is too early to have either and imo this rifle was not kept in German inventory post 1919. Probably, almost for sure, a WWI bring back.

-Is this a correct sling for this rifle?

Looks period correct, the markings have no relationship with a date, like 1945. I can't make out the markings, but it is probably a depot marking, often they are a series of letters over a number. Nice slings are hard to find, 9 holes is right, the m-buckle looks right, - do yourself a favor, do nothing to this sling, it is probably worth a couple hundred. You apply some preservative and that can halve...

-What kind of value would you put on this rifle?

Hard to say the pictures are not great, but it looks damn nice and original. Imperial original and matching, both hard to find on a 1915. I think it is a z-block, which would place it two thirds through 1915 production, - try and do a better picture of the serial, to confirm the suffix, they can be difficult to identify because German fonts are often elaborately cursive (in cursive), sometimes in Sütterlin of Fraktur which many modern Germans can't even decipher. Naturally, most people do not care the suffix of where in 1915 this rifle falls (made), assuming the rifle is everything the pictures suggest it is, I would say $1500+, - while the 98a is a common rifle, they are not common in this condition and this early in the war. There are a 100 nice 1916's and 1917's for every 1915 this nice. I never owned a Erfurt/15 this nice (matched to the bolt is difficult)


-What screw do I need to go in the rear band where the duffel cut currently is?

The RB probably won't go on with this "staple" (has it been altered to fit around this staple?), you really should have it professionally fixed, - this repair is the only serious distraction. Properly fixed DC's are not usually a hindrance to value, to the degree they are, it is a product of other elements related to the DC, not the repair itself... I would fix this, it could only help value to most collectors, though there are those that liken every abuse to a rifles history and some pay a premium for the "insult", - your rc "collectors" for instance.

I've thought about getting the duffel cut repaired again more professionally and modern too. Thanks!

You should

 

[Sport10990]

Loewe

Thank you for the info! Believe it or not, I paid 850 for this rifle with all the extras. The bayonet is a 1939. I knew it didn’t go with the rifle. This was apparently all a bring back and the bayo prob just came back with the soldier. I was just curious about the serial number being one numeral off. Here are the pictures you requested. There are no other markings on the butt plate besides the serial number. The filling can be easily removed, just easier to see some things. I’m going to be contacting Mark Novak who’s probably the best gunsmith in the country for the duffel cut. Is it a Z block? I can’t read German cursive well haha. Sling markings appear to say from top to bottom AND or AWD or AD, 26, and 15.

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[Loewe]

That is a good price imo, though valuations are dependent upon many factors, - this rifle is rare in this condition, the sling is a couple hundred dollars, the muzzle cover could be $100 or more. The bayonet, well, depending on maker and whether match to bard, could go near $100, though I doubt that bard matches, - its been decades since i collected type III's, but a 39 bard probably had a earlier stud. I gave up on bayonets long before rifles, they were grossly overpriced a decade ago, no telling what they are running these days.. I use to be really into all the common variations Imperial through NS.

Yes, that is a z-block, you can only decipher them by trending them, often there is no real continuity maker to maker or even year to year, so you need to have a large number of recordings to make comparisons. Often they are typical latin or roman characters, or close enough, but you get some queer ones that defy identification if you can't make comparisons. Some letters are consistently difficult, a, e, l, h, s, u, v, x, y, z, especially when dealing with acceptance (suffix is generally easier, acceptance is often little more than guessing, mostly because it is more prone to Fraktur and Süttelin, which can vary significantly by maker, date and even range in some cases... at least with suffix the possibilities can be narrowed by other factors). It seems even the Germans of the period couldn't agree on a set font, some within each variation adopting a more stylistic font. The Germans should have retained this acceptance protocol or convention, it is far more confusing than waffenamts and ordnance codes, - though if the republic and its opponents agreed upon one thing it was a complete break with the past and cyphers, acceptance and tradition were only acceptable to a small minority of the German people after 1918. Only a relative few military officers and old bureaucrats wished to retain the traditions of Imperial Germany or the Kingdoms.

That is a depot marking on the sling, very common and a plus because it dates it to the Imperial era.

 

[Sport10990]

Well thanks Loewe. This really helps. I guess I found a good one!

 

[Tom H]

Yes you did good. Like has been said nice matching/Imperial Kar98a rifles are scarce.

 

[Sport10990]

Ok my old thread but new question....looking at the floor plate and trigger guard and magazine, i came across “14” which is not the last 2 of the sn but other parts of the same piece of metal are the correct sn. Is this just an inspectors stamp? I want to ensure that so I can still believe the rifle is all matching. Another spot has a 3 but I’m definitely assuming this is just a typical inspection mark. I’m just confused with this 14 especially since the rifles sn is on the same piece of metal. Also, anybody got an extra screw for the rear barrel band???

 

[Loewe]

Nothing to worry about, the trigger guard assembly is original. No way to tell the meaning of the numbers, probably some internal inspection the factory workers conducted during assembly. Erfurt was a large operation, probably as large as any of the others.. they made enormous numbers of carbines and bayonets in 1915, plus machine guns and pistols... they had a lot going on and this practice is common throughout all the makers, even before the war.

It's a valuable rifle, if you take care of it it will retain its value and appreciate over time, avoid cleaning and abrasives, store it properly and keep shooting it to a minimum, avoid corrosive crap ammo also. Erfurt/15's in this condition are hard to find...

 

[Sport10990]

Does anyone have a spare rear band screw or will another screw work such as one from a Czech Vz24?