My 1916 Simson and Co Gewehr 98 (My First Gewehr 98)

[aalbert1]

Hey all -

I figured id post showing my 1916 Simpson and Suhl G98 I picked up two years ago. This was my first G98 I bought at my local shop. It was a duffle cut so potentially a bring back rifle. I had the duffle cut fixed so I would be able to shoot it. Its mostly matching minus the bolt and I think the barrel... also missing a cleaning rod.

From what ive researched it is a rare manufacturer but Id like more information on the rifle if possible!


Thanks,
Andy

 

[Loewe]

Excellent reporting! This is the last block (G) that Simson made it to in 1916, whatsmore it is the highest rifle n that range. Looks Saxon to me (cypher) and that is typical as MANY Simson's were delivered to Saxony (and prejudice or not most are screwed up bring backs like this one, but still very desirable, even in this condition) - looks a lot like my Saxon sterngewehr with a Simson receiver...

It is damn difficult to find a nice Simson (I read once, in an English intel brief an English officer witnessed some Saxon's (or maybe Wurt's?) evil eyeing some Prussian units after the armistice retreat... it was said that the non-Prussian troops resented having to carry so much of theload inthe last days of the war, - and Saxon rifles sure show use and hard to find nice, - Prussian made rifles are far easier to find nice..)

 

[chrisftk]

Hey all -

I figured id post showing my 1916 Simpson and Suhl G98 I picked up two years ago. This was my first G98 I bought at my local shop. It was a duffle cut so potentially a bring back rifle. I had the duffle cut fixed so I would be able to shoot it. Its mostly matching minus the bolt and I think the barrel... also missing a cleaning rod.

From what ive researched it is a rare manufacturer but Id like more information on the rifle if possible!


Thanks,
Andy

I agree with everything Paul said- I'll note that the barrel actually matches, so looks like a straight bolt m/m; which is a plus. The goofy non-standard duffelcuts don't usually turn me off, but it's good you had it repaired for stability. You may want to consider some sort of resin or other professional repair to fill the gap from the saw cut. It'll look better and be even more stable.

IMO, Simson isn't the rarest manufacturer in 1916, but anecdotally it seems to come up relatively infrequently compared with others. WO Kornbusch and Simson seem to draw competition when they come up as well and seem a bit more coveted. As far as other harder makers--Individual Suhler makers seem to be very low survival and Haenel the lowest observed-- again anecdotal. You'll hear conflicting observation on which Suhler is the hardest to find.. some tell me Sauer, some Schilling (i've had good luck with both, by contrast)-- but Haenel seems the most consistently reported as the maker folks have had difficulty sourcing. On a raw # standpoint, I have 2 Simsons (one Prussian, one Saxon) in my collection and 12 Suhlers.

Either way, many who want a Simson have to be patient and can't just get one, regardless of $$---- nice find!

 

[PrayingMantis]

Thanks for posting this! It is a nice Saxon Simson, with the Saxon king's cypher on the stock. The eagle fireproof is also Saxon, and the crown over B acceptance is consistent with other Saxon Simsons. Not much more to say than Paul and Chris, but i will add that the stock is beech and the finish, which is original, has a very dark stain, probably to match walnut stocks. This is common with the consortium but seems like Simson did it also based on this and other Beech stocks observed. It does look like someone tried to remove the barrel at one point, causing the marring, but looks like they gave up and as Chris mentioned it is the original barrel. If you take it out of the wood it would be good to see any markings on the underside of the barrel. Additionally, if you could photograph the triggerguard that would be helpful.

 

[aalbert1]

Thank you so much @chrisftk @Loewe and @PrayingMantis for information on the rifle!! I learned a lot today thank you! I am fairly new to collecting, only been doing it for almost 6 years now since I bought my first k98 when i was 18. Im glad the barrel matches. I saw the 79 and assumed it didn't maybe i was looking at the wrong marking. And I think I did post a before and after the duffle cut repair. Are you suggesting I should do something else to it? Does anyone have a good comprehensive list of makers and # made by years? Info seems out but also somewhat scarce and all over the place. I will take the barrel out at some point to look and Ill get a photo of the trigger guard soon!

 

[PrayingMantis]

I see what you mean, but the 7.9 is the barrel diameter, it was always stamped on the collar and will be close to 7.9, give or take a little. I believe Chris was talking about the gap in the wood in the photo, it looks like though repaired there is still an open area, which could get caught on something or chip. There are various ways to fix that, i personally use and recommend wax as it is reversible.
As for production by year, that can get complicated. The best estimates come from serial number highs for each year, but sometimes it's not consistent. For example, early production for some makers rolled over serial numbers and therefore did not start with number one each year. Also, the Suhler Konsortium seems to have shared serial numbers, so that makes estimates difficult. That said, Simson did not do anything odd in 1916, so it's pretty safe to say they produced around 80,000 rifles; 10,000 for every letter block including no letter up through G. That's the best guess now unless something radical happens like an N block shows up, which is very, very unlikely.
Last thing before i step off the production number soap box, production numbers do not always correlate to survival in original condition. Early gews are harder to find because so many were destroyed. Later gews are harder because so many were kept and updated then lost or sent to Spain or the Balkans. Mid war seems to be the sweet spot for survival in original configuration since most souvenirs and war bond gews are from the 1916-1917 time frame.

 

[aalbert1]

I see what you mean, but the 7.9 is the barrel diameter, it was always stamped on the collar and will be close to 7.9, give or take a little. I believe Chris was talking about the gap in the wood in the photo, it looks like though repaired there is still an open area, which could get caught on something or chip. There are various ways to fix that, i personally use and recommend wax as it is reversible.
As for production by year, that can get complicated. The best estimates come from serial number highs for each year, but sometimes it's not consistent. For example, early production for some makers rolled over serial numbers and therefore did not start with number one each year. Also, the Suhler Konsortium seems to have shared serial numbers, so that makes estimates difficult. That said, Simson did not do anything odd in 1916, so it's pretty safe to say they produced around 80,000 rifles; 10,000 for every letter block including no letter up through G. That's the best guess now unless something radical happens like an N block shows up, which is very, very unlikely.
Last thing before i step off the production number soap box, production numbers do not always correlate to survival in original condition. Early gews are harder to find because so many were destroyed. Later gews are harder because so many were kept and updated then lost or sent to Spain or the Balkans. Mid war seems to be the sweet spot for survival in original configuration since most souvenirs and war bond gews are from the 1916-1917 time frame.

Thank you for the information!! I will get a picture of the triggerguard soon.

 

[Loewe]

I agree with everything Paul said- I'll note that the barrel actually matches, so looks like a straight bolt m/m; which is a plus. The goofy non-standard duffelcuts don't usually turn me off, but it's good you had it repaired for stability. You may want to consider some sort of resin or other professional repair to fill the gap from the saw cut. It'll look better and be even more stable.

IMO, Simson isn't the rarest manufacturer in 1916, but anecdotally it seems to come up relatively infrequently compared with others. WO Kornbusch and Simson seem to draw competition when they come up as well and seem a bit more coveted. As far as other harder makers--Individual Suhler makers seem to be very low survival and Haenel the lowest observed-- again anecdotal. You'll hear conflicting observation on which Suhler is the hardest to find.. some tell me Sauer, some Schilling (i've had good luck with both, by contrast)-- but Haenel seems the most consistently reported as the maker folks have had difficulty sourcing. On a raw # standpoint, I have 2 Simsons (one Prussian, one Saxon) in my collection and 12 Suhlers.

Either way, many who want a Simson have to be patient and can't just get one, regardless of $$---- nice find!

Mark Wieringa shared your views on the Suhl makers, especially in upper grades and I considers Mark observations as high as any others, - including my own and I am somewhat a narcissist regarding my thoughts on rifle trends and historical context (rifle related) 1898-1935.

 

[PrayingMantis]

For me Simsons haven't been too hard, but probably because of your influence Paul i've gone harder after them. Haenel was the last Suhl i needed to complete the set, and even then it wasn't the best. Thanks to Jeff Noll i upgraded, but a bolt matching example still eludes me, so personally i consider it the most challenging. I got lucky on a Schilling, found a very decent bolt matching 1915 early in collecting, and Sauers seem to come my way also.
But all of that is not to say Simsons are easy to find. Especially nice ones like Andy's here.

 

[joryfreeburg]

Nice Simson…. Congrats

 

[aalbert1]

For me Simsons haven't been too hard, but probably because of your influence Paul i've gone harder after them. Haenel was the last Suhl i needed to complete the set, and even then it wasn't the best. Thanks to Jeff Noll i upgraded, but a bolt matching example still eludes me, so personally i consider it the most challenging. I got lucky on a Schilling, found a very decent bolt matching 1915 early in collecting, and Sauers seem to come my way also.
But all of that is not to say Simsons are easy to find. Especially nice ones like Andy's here.

Now I need to figure out which ones to collect next! What do you recommend?

 

[aalbert1]

Nice Simson…. Congrats

Thank you!

 

[PrayingMantis]

Now I need to figure out which ones to collect next! What do you recommend?

Man that can be tough, especially when they’re all so interesting! I think most people go for the maker set first, which is absolutely an attainable goal, but still requires thirteen Gewehrs.

 

[joryfreeburg]

Man that can be tough, especially when they’re all so interesting! I think most people go for the maker set first, which is absolutely an attainable goal, but still requires thirteen Gewehrs.

That’s a cool picture

 

[aalbert1]

Man that can be tough, especially when they’re all so interesting! I think most people go for the maker set first, which is absolutely an attainable goal, but still requires thirteen Gewehrs.

Dude.. what a flex! That is a awesome picture! Id love to do that but I dont think ill get lucky like I did above just happening to stumble across a G98 like that! I think i will go for what you did! Is that two Spandus I see?

 

[PrayingMantis]

Dude.. what a flex! That is a awesome picture! Id love to do that but I dont think ill get lucky like I did above just happening to stumble across a G98 like that! I think i will go for what you did! Is that two Spandus I see?

Haha, thanks! Yes there are multiple Spandaus in the photo, but only one was made by Spandau. The two on the end are subcontracted receivers assembled elsewhere: the * Spandau 1916/17 at the Dresden ammo plant (https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/gewehr-98-dresden-spandau-1916-17-4517.57458/) and the H Spandau 1917 at Hannover (https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/gewehr-98-h-spandau-2279a.47254/)
It is a time consuming goal, but definitely attainable and worth while. One of the more interesting things about Gewehrs are the differing receiver markings--between the crown arsenals and the private companies, plus the Suhl consortium--so you get a nice variety when you collect by maker even if you don't have the full set.

That’s a cool picture

Thank you, Jory!

 

[Loewe]

For me Simsons haven't been too hard, but probably because of your influence Paul i've gone harder after them. Haenel was the last Suhl i needed to complete the set, and even then it wasn't the best. Thanks to Jeff Noll i upgraded, but a bolt matching example still eludes me, so personally i consider it the most challenging. I got lucky on a Schilling, found a very decent bolt matching 1915 early in collecting, and Sauers seem to come my way also.
But all of that is not to say Simsons are easy to find. Especially nice ones like Andy's here.

Simson is my favorite maker and they hard to find nice, but CGH is probably the toughest to find overall, - JPS which MW said he found toughest (20 years ago) I had the most luck with... I never actually owned a straight-up CGH, though I have had a CGH 1915 salvage (bond rifle Mauserbill reactivated for me again about 20-25 years ago)

I think the Consortium offers a great deal to a collector that likes riddles and puzzles, probably the most complex (moving parts) Imperial G98 field. I long ago trended out the Suhl makers and most previous conclusions I entered with were turned on their head after trends were completed. I am tempted to add trends to a new study but we have so many already underway it will be just more clutter!

***actually meant VCS is the hardest to find, least number recorded in trends, but never had a straight-up CGH or VCS...

 

[aalbert1]

Haha, thanks! Yes there are multiple Spandaus in the photo, but only one was made by Spandau. The two on the end are subcontracted receivers assembled elsewhere: the * Spandau 1916/17 at the Dresden ammo plant (https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/gewehr-98-dresden-spandau-1916-17-4517.57458/) and the H Spandau 1917 at Hannover (https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/gewehr-98-h-spandau-2279a.47254/)
It is a time consuming goal, but definitely attainable and worth while. One of the more interesting things about Gewehrs are the differing receiver markings--between the crown arsenals and the private companies, plus the Suhl consortium--so you get a nice variety when you collect by maker even if you don't have the full set.


Thank you, Jory!

Wow! Thats so cool! So much to learn!

 

[chrisftk]

I think the Consortium offers a great deal to a collector that likes riddles and puzzles, probably the most complex (moving parts) Imperial G98 field. I long ago trended out the Suhl makers and most previous conclusions I entered with were turned on their head after trends were completed. I am tempted to add trends to a new study but we have so many already underway it will be just more clutter!

Agree completely-- they are my huckleberry. I've been extraordinarily lucky with Suhlers-- particularly 15 dated. They did some really cool things early on like the salvaged receiver builds. There's a lot more known now, but I'm sure plenty of mysteries still waiting.