Missed match 98k
- Thread starter RICK54
- Start date
I pretty much stick to rifles with matching bolts and stocks. Depending on price or rarity, I can be convinced to take one with some minor mismatched parts, but not a mismatched stock or bolt. Many of them have been through hell. At what point do you draw the line? Complete mismatch, RC, etc.? It is not that I frown on any of them. I just recognize that I have X number of dollars to spend and cannot purchase every rifle that I encounter. The more original (and matching) the more interesting to me. The more original (and matching) the better they serve as an investment. I could break my own rule regarding matching major components, but if I did it, it would either be a bargain-priced rifle I knew I would flip or something so rare that I would be lucky to find it in any trim (e.g. the virtually unknown 1936 bsw). I have very little self control when it comes to buying German used rifles from WW2. I have to have some way to keep myself in check.
Last edited:
RICK54
Member
But if your not buying it to sell what difference does it make most I have seen the bolt has been pencil in to match the stock does that make it less desirable ?
I'm really not buying to sell. Anyone who knows me here will second that. It makes a difference to me when a rifle is penciled or numbered to match. If done wartime, I'm interested. Postwar, not so much. I think the German soldiers did a fairly good job of keeping a rifle with its correct, number-matching parts. The way it would have been carried wartime is what I'm looking for. Like I said, I only have so much to spend. If I set no rules, I would have no remaining collecting budget. I don't have much trouble finding rifles that fit my standards. It is a matter of what someone wants. A shooter will normally have a different set of standards than a collector, and different still than a reenactor. A collector gets to figure out what flips his own switch. If you like bolt mismatches in otherwise original condition, great. I like that because it makes it less likely that we will be competing for the same rifle/s. So long as you are happy there is no wrong answer.
I try to buy all matching guns. If it is a rare code and a bolt mismatch only and the price is reasonable to me then it's purchased. Post war reworks have no appeal to me, as do guns with post war replaced non matching stocks. Money, that is disposable income, is of course a consideration. A all matching $3,000.00 gun versus the same year / code, with a mismatched bolt only, for $800.00, in the same overall condition - well, I know the $800.00 is going home with me simply because of it's price. Later when the last kid is out of college I may see things different.
Bob in OHIO
Senior Member
Collector's (general) creed.... buy the "best" example you can afford. For me, the reality also includes what is available. Matched guns aren't the only thing that presents themselves to purchase, so I dabble w/ bolt mm too. Even had an RC for maybe a day.
We all have different likes, budgets, opportunities to purchase, and we are at different points on the collector trajectory. This alone creates differences in quality/ quantity among our collections. Buying lesser quality (for whatever reason) doesn't make one a "bad" person.
We all have different likes, budgets, opportunities to purchase, and we are at different points on the collector trajectory. This alone creates differences in quality/ quantity among our collections. Buying lesser quality (for whatever reason) doesn't make one a "bad" person.
RICK54
Member
Just because its missed matched does not necessarily mean it wasn't done by the Germans towards the end of the war everything was different hell they were running out of everything , not to say I wouldn't like to have a nice matching but just dont like to hear thats junk or not a real rifle I know some of you understand.
Factories never sent mismatched guns out the door, and neither did the depots. While you can find factory mistakes (transposed numbers, stamping an 8 instead of a 3, etc.) and some mismatched minor parts on depot repaired guns, virtually all mismatched rifles were mixed up or repaired/restored post-war.
Anything is possible but when not as it should be verification is required or it is wrong, faked, humped or something less than desired.
Any questionable or varied from the norm should be considered fake unless positively proven otherwise..
Another good idea is to buy the gun not the story.
It is your money and you may be as careful or reckless as you choose
Wulfmann
No Mauser rifle is junk if it's mismatched. It will do it's intended job no problem. It doesn't have the same value as matching though.
Want some life advice? Stop worrying about what other people think, your life in general will get much better. I don't seek the approval of those people I dislike, in fact take great joy in their consternation.
Want some life advice? Stop worrying about what other people think, your life in general will get much better. I don't seek the approval of those people I dislike, in fact take great joy in their consternation.
Hands down a matching one is nicer then mismatched, any better as a firearm...probably not.
Also matching is 10x or more harder to find, and alot of guys will agree, the chase is half the fun!!
Also matching is 10x or more harder to find, and alot of guys will agree, the chase is half the fun!!
met
Well-known member
I'm new to milsurps and enjoy shooting and hunting with them so I have started my k98k collection with 2 barreled RC actions put in non RC repaired stocks. Like to tinker too. In the meantime I read the interesting and educational posts on this forum and learn from these very knowledgeable folks. I'll likely acquire a bolt mismatch next - probably off the trader and probably an all matching someday, Lord (and wife) willing, but there is no big hurry - the joy. Is in the journey!
No one is trying to win your approval or cares if you agree.
there are various value indicators depending on the person.
Collector value is everything correct, as it should be. Your disapproval does not change that fact
Value as a shooter. The best shooting K98k I have ever owned (over 100) was a RC BYF42.
Weird accuracy consistent 1.5" at 200 yards (benchrest) with iron sites was freaky.
I redid all the parts so it was 42 correct with BYF bands etc and a competitor friend talked me out of it.
I bought a BCD43 from a cop who's uncle brought it home. Bolt MM. His uncle took a wheelbarrel full of K98ks to a field and had a shoot off to determine which was the most accurate. This one was and he brought it home. Second most accurate K98k I ever had.
What I enjoy doing is getting RCs and restoring them to the correct parts for that year and refinishing them to be more German looking. Many people want a K98k but just a good representation not an expensive collector.
I have only had a few all matching and two of those were humped, faked and my ignorance cost me dearly in attacks on forums by a few "Experten" although most understood being fooled did not make me the bad guy but it can be discouraging to find out you got taken and then be accused of being the one who humped the gun.
However, I do understand the K98k community takes faked crap seriously and is not shy about weeding them out and while some few can be jerks it does more good to have people carefully scrutinizing the auctions and offers.
Coming to this site or WW2W and asking for an opinion is a very wise thing to do when considering a Matched K98k and if I buy a so called match gun before I resell it I come to one or both of these sites to verify if I was lucky or stupid.
The last two; one was better than I thought the other had a humped bolt and after that was spotted I looked at it and could not believe I did not see it before I bought it. (Perhaps we see what we want to?)
You may believe the gun you decided to sell is what you say but should offer it with a full refund inspection and should buy with the same condition so you can come here and get that great advice.
Sites like this make considering a matched gun purchase for us less than "Experten" a possibility to do so with confidence and I am grateful for these guys for taking the time to do so
Wulfmann
djbuck1
Well-known member
I was just looking at a Mauser on Gunbroker. The guy selling it has prominently displayed:
MINT! ALL NUMBERS ARE MATCHING!
He also has pics up showing that the number on the upper band is different than that on the receiver.
I don't think he has anyone fooled, because the bidding has just cracked $400. It looks like a decent enough rifle, but this is yet another example of the abundant misinformation/disinformation that comes from sellers.
I can't imagine a Mauser with matching numbers selling for anything less than four figures. You have to be careful about who you are dealing with.
RCs sometimes trigger my own sense of irony. I have a byf 1938 "bring home" with bolt mismatch, a bnz 1943 import with bolt mismatch, and an import RC. Best condition, best appearance (electro penciling notwithstanding) best shooting? The RC.
And btw, if you think that there's "gun snobbery" here, try a Mosin Nagant forum. This forum is actually pretty fairly balanced.
MINT! ALL NUMBERS ARE MATCHING!
He also has pics up showing that the number on the upper band is different than that on the receiver.
I don't think he has anyone fooled, because the bidding has just cracked $400. It looks like a decent enough rifle, but this is yet another example of the abundant misinformation/disinformation that comes from sellers.
I can't imagine a Mauser with matching numbers selling for anything less than four figures. You have to be careful about who you are dealing with.
RCs sometimes trigger my own sense of irony. I have a byf 1938 "bring home" with bolt mismatch, a bnz 1943 import with bolt mismatch, and an import RC. Best condition, best appearance (electro penciling notwithstanding) best shooting? The RC.
And btw, if you think that there's "gun snobbery" here, try a Mosin Nagant forum. This forum is actually pretty fairly balanced.
pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
Everyone eventually synthesizes their own personal collecting ethos over the years.
Sure many when starting out are happy to find any example of a particular rifle, but eventually most will narrow their focus.
If you look strictly at value, any correct/matched gun will be worth more than a similiar gun that is mismtached/rebuilt/bubba'ed. Thats just a fact.
Some of us started collecting 98k's back when matching guns would cost you $400-$600, and bolt mismatches would cost $200-$300, and complete mismatches cost $100-$200....if you were lucky enough to start then you probably have mainly matching and bolt mismatches in your collection (like myself).
Many who got into it later after prices started shooting up, and when RC's were starting to come in, the prices for RC's were more attractive of course, and they built collections of RC's. Now for me, RC's have absolutely no value except for data purposes (mainly barrel code trends like Loewe and others track) or maybe if it is a really rare code or something like a 98k converted G98. I have little to no use for RC's personally, and the only one I own is converted to a LSR replica (much better to use an RC than a more "collectible" rifle to me...). I do not disparage anyone who likes them, or chooses to collect them, but they are not for me.
I am not particularly picky with 98k's other than getting the best I can for an affordable price. I collect code/years, and would love to eventually have one of each...so if I find a mismatched code/year gun for a reasonable price I will grab it at least as a place holder...if I can upgrade later, i will dump the less desireable (in my eyes) off.
Personally and financially I cannot bring myself to pay $1500 or more for a matching gun...so over the past few years I have either gotten very lucky, or settled for mis-matched guns to fill holes. I am lucky somewhat in that the market is depressed locally, not a whole lot of hard core 98k collectors (there are a few though...), and guns that bring $1500 and up on the internet or at big shows just won't sell for anywhere near that locally.
But essentially it boils down to what YOU want to collect and what YOU will put in your collection...leave it at that, collect what you like, and let others collect what they like.
I also agree, the fallacy of mismatched 98k's being cranked out at the end, or for whatever reason is just that. There is an argument to be made for a single or maybe even several mismatched parts being done at the field level, or even a mismatched bolt here and there (I gotta believe every once in a while they did get mixed up in the field). But factory guns would never be mismatched intentionally. Total mismatches are strictly post war modifications....
Also, personally, I love bolt mismatches, I would rather buy 2 or 3 bolt mismatches than 1 really high priced matching gun, but again, thats my collecting ethos, and others wouldn't think of it.
Sure many when starting out are happy to find any example of a particular rifle, but eventually most will narrow their focus.
If you look strictly at value, any correct/matched gun will be worth more than a similiar gun that is mismtached/rebuilt/bubba'ed. Thats just a fact.
Some of us started collecting 98k's back when matching guns would cost you $400-$600, and bolt mismatches would cost $200-$300, and complete mismatches cost $100-$200....if you were lucky enough to start then you probably have mainly matching and bolt mismatches in your collection (like myself).
Many who got into it later after prices started shooting up, and when RC's were starting to come in, the prices for RC's were more attractive of course, and they built collections of RC's. Now for me, RC's have absolutely no value except for data purposes (mainly barrel code trends like Loewe and others track) or maybe if it is a really rare code or something like a 98k converted G98. I have little to no use for RC's personally, and the only one I own is converted to a LSR replica (much better to use an RC than a more "collectible" rifle to me...). I do not disparage anyone who likes them, or chooses to collect them, but they are not for me.
I am not particularly picky with 98k's other than getting the best I can for an affordable price. I collect code/years, and would love to eventually have one of each...so if I find a mismatched code/year gun for a reasonable price I will grab it at least as a place holder...if I can upgrade later, i will dump the less desireable (in my eyes) off.
Personally and financially I cannot bring myself to pay $1500 or more for a matching gun...so over the past few years I have either gotten very lucky, or settled for mis-matched guns to fill holes. I am lucky somewhat in that the market is depressed locally, not a whole lot of hard core 98k collectors (there are a few though...), and guns that bring $1500 and up on the internet or at big shows just won't sell for anywhere near that locally.
But essentially it boils down to what YOU want to collect and what YOU will put in your collection...leave it at that, collect what you like, and let others collect what they like.
I also agree, the fallacy of mismatched 98k's being cranked out at the end, or for whatever reason is just that. There is an argument to be made for a single or maybe even several mismatched parts being done at the field level, or even a mismatched bolt here and there (I gotta believe every once in a while they did get mixed up in the field). But factory guns would never be mismatched intentionally. Total mismatches are strictly post war modifications....
Also, personally, I love bolt mismatches, I would rather buy 2 or 3 bolt mismatches than 1 really high priced matching gun, but again, thats my collecting ethos, and others wouldn't think of it.
djbuck1
Well-known member
I honestly wonder about the "why" of bolt mismatches.
Conventional wisdom seems to be that the bolts were pulled out and thrown on one pile while the rifles went on another at the time of surrender. The reasoning being that the rifles were rendered at least temporarily unusable.
Okay. I kind of get that what with the rumors of "Werewolf" and armed resistance at the end of the war.
However, any surrender footage or pictures that I have seen do NOT show the surrendering troops extracting bolts. They lay their rifle down in the pile with the bolt still in the rifle-- some unlocked, but most locked.
It's all very mysterious . . .
And I'll tell you what, the bolt on my 1938 byf bring-home is NOT a very good match, mechanically.
On the other hand, but-for the serial number difference the bolt in my RC capture might have been made for that rifle. Of course, I understand that the Russians meant to use them operationally or to send them to "client" states at some point, whereas a GI just wanted a souvenir, but it's another one of those anomalies.
I'm not sure if I have an ethos yet. I just like milsurp weapons. The more authentic/original the better, but each has a story to tell.
Conventional wisdom seems to be that the bolts were pulled out and thrown on one pile while the rifles went on another at the time of surrender. The reasoning being that the rifles were rendered at least temporarily unusable.
Okay. I kind of get that what with the rumors of "Werewolf" and armed resistance at the end of the war.
However, any surrender footage or pictures that I have seen do NOT show the surrendering troops extracting bolts. They lay their rifle down in the pile with the bolt still in the rifle-- some unlocked, but most locked.
It's all very mysterious . . .
And I'll tell you what, the bolt on my 1938 byf bring-home is NOT a very good match, mechanically.
On the other hand, but-for the serial number difference the bolt in my RC capture might have been made for that rifle. Of course, I understand that the Russians meant to use them operationally or to send them to "client" states at some point, whereas a GI just wanted a souvenir, but it's another one of those anomalies.
I'm not sure if I have an ethos yet. I just like milsurp weapons. The more authentic/original the better, but each has a story to tell.
I honestly wonder about the "why" of bolt mismatches.
Conventional wisdom seems to be that the bolts were pulled out and thrown on one pile while the rifles went on another at the time of surrender. The reasoning being that the rifles were rendered at least temporarily unusable.
Okay. I kind of get that what with the rumors of "Werewolf" and armed resistance at the end of the war.
However, any surrender footage or pictures that I have seen do NOT show the surrendering troops extracting bolts. They lay their rifle down in the pile with the bolt still in the rifle-- some unlocked, but most locked.
It's all very mysterious . . .
And I'll tell you what, the bolt on my 1938 byf bring-home is NOT a very good match, mechanically.
On the other hand, but-for the serial number difference the bolt in my RC capture might have been made for that rifle. Of course, I understand that the Russians meant to use them operationally or to send them to "client" states at some point, whereas a GI just wanted a souvenir, but it's another one of those anomalies.
I'm not sure if I have an ethos yet. I just like milsurp weapons. The more authentic/original the better, but each has a story to tell.
I have read the same about the reason for the bringback bolt MM. Also have not seen a photo of capture pile minus bolts, but it seems plausible. Not all srrendered weapons were subjected to the exact same procedures. I have seen it mentioned that the same thing could apply to some floorplate MM as they may have been mixed when the magazines were dumped of ammo prior to surrender. Again, this makes sense, but don't know if it's true or not. Another reason for a bolt MM I've been told was that the importers removed bolts from the rifles during shipment, and no effort was made to re-match them on arrival. In any case, any of the reasons make the all matching example all the more desireable!