I'm a relatively new collector and am VERY hesitant about purchasing any k98 without heavy research and authentication. Frankly my reticence stems from the rash of outright fraud in the market. When you say "restoration," I wonder if you're planning to keep the rifle your whole life and be buried with it when you die. If not, will your sale listing when you trade up to a rifle with original intact markings document your "restoration"? Assuming you hold the rifle your whole life, will your heirs know about your "restoration" when they flog your collection? If you can't guarantee both situations would include an accurate description of your "restoration" then it seems likely to me that your rifle will enter the market at some point as what collectors delicately refer to as "humped." New collectors often learn costly lessons about pre-purchase research on similar rifles. That may be why you don't hear deafening cheers about your proposal to "restore" this rifle.
Mauser K98 BYF 44 Eagle Stamp/Punch
- Thread starter IhrkeD
- Start date
I'm a relatively new collector and am VERY hesitant about purchasing any k98 without heavy research and authentication. Frankly my reticence stems from the rash of outright fraud in the market. When you say "restoration," I wonder if you're planning to keep the rifle your whole life and be buried with it when you die. If not, will your sale listing when you trade up to a rifle with original intact markings document your "restoration"? Assuming you hold the rifle your whole life, will your heirs know about your "restoration" when they flog your collection? If you can't guarantee both situations would include an accurate description of your "restoration" then it seems likely to me that your rifle will enter the market at some point as what collectors delicately refer to as "humped." New collectors often learn costly lessons about pre-purchase research on similar rifles. That may be why you don't hear deafening cheers about your proposal to "restore" this rifle.
M1903A3
Keeper of the Def's Head
It's just that in the universe of expensive collectible rifles there are actually people who restamp rifles with the explicit purpose of selling them to people for big dollars, and the rifles are fakes. They are actually fairly sophisticated. What is sad is that we WATCH these fakes actually sell for big bucks, and we KNOW someone got had. Some of them turn up here and someone has to break the bad news to them. Often they get turned off completely to the hobby, sadly. But the faker makes his money and moves right on along doing the same thing. They move around, change names, improve their craft, and sell enough rifles to unsuspecting people that it's worth their while.
Now nobody is in any way suggesting you were doing that, not at all. This is the LAST place someone would come for that! But along with the above "fake" issue is that here in this forum there is a great motivation to understand the rifles IN CONTEXT, in as original form as possible, to better understand the entire K98 story. Thus, a gun like yours HAS A PLACE in the K98 universe, and is on its own a rifle with a story. But it is also part of a larger story, so trying to make it back into what it was is seen largely as disingenuous, and/or unnecessary. Plus, if you are really into these then you can now begin your search for one that has not had the markings peened out. Or, you could find parts to "return" yours to as close to original as possible, but it IS what it IS.
I hope that makes sense and sums up the feelings and ideas you have seen regarding your rifle and questions.
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First, Welcome to the forum. There are some grumps here but many are very nice gentlemen to know. It is the best weapons forum I have ever seen.
Second, I can understand your desire to restore this rifle. It is a American trait. We like to restore things. However, with a rifle like this I would advise against it.
By restoring it you are altering it's history. Like it or not, someone refaced all the Nazi markings. This is the history of the rifle and it deserves to be left alone. The other major reason (and the one that most here object to) is that your intention may be pure but one day you may sell this rifle as a restored rifle. Then at some point it will be re-sold as original rifle thus causing someone to be burned financially. It is for this reason that many here will emphatically object to you added fake stamps to this rifle.
If you desire a rifle that is original then they are not tough to find. Use this rifle as a shooter. You can still enjoy it and it not be a perfect rifle. Hope this helps.
You gentlemen are truly insightful and I would have never thought of it from that perspective. I appreciate all your wonderful feedback. The last thing I would want to do is to have this be inherited by one of my family members and then for it too be sold as an "original" and not a restoration. I suppose I have not been burned before and never imagined that that kind of stuff happens.
I had hoped that the word restoration and the historical integrity of the rifle would not be used in a purely economic sense used to scam or burn people later down the road. Regardless, I suppose the eagles are still somewhat intact and that an individual that gets this rifle past my time can appreciate it as is. I will just have to buy another K98 down the road haha.
Once again gentlemen (and/or ladies), you guys have been tremendous help and I appreciate your insight. I just wish that the rifle would be in better shape but I suppose it has its own story that I (in respect to history) should not tamper with.
I had hoped that the word restoration and the historical integrity of the rifle would not be used in a purely economic sense used to scam or burn people later down the road. Regardless, I suppose the eagles are still somewhat intact and that an individual that gets this rifle past my time can appreciate it as is. I will just have to buy another K98 down the road haha.
Once again gentlemen (and/or ladies), you guys have been tremendous help and I appreciate your insight. I just wish that the rifle would be in better shape but I suppose it has its own story that I (in respect to history) should not tamper with.
sheepdog
Potential Future Early War Armchair Internet Expe
Perhaps some Yugoslavian partisan who lost several members of his family to the Germans picked up that rifle and in disgust defaced the stamps and dirty birds. A restoration dishonors that moment, it removes or covers up traces of Kursk or Bastogne. You just don't know how the rifles stamps were defaced, could have been Bubba, could have been that partisan. Why mess with it's history, somehow it's fallen into your hands, honor it's unknown past.
Just a little more of that perspective.
Just a little more of that perspective.
Rook16
Well-known member
This is well said! You may someday honestly sell off this "restored" rifle; but somewhere in the future, it may be attempted to be sold as original. And to a novice, or new comer willing to pay out big bucks for something that appears to be original is just plain wrong! Honesty and integrity are everything to those on this forum. I am by no means one of these experts; and I bought some K98s long ago, before so much of the current information was available. I don't ever want to pass off any of these rifle as something that they're not--and hopefully I never do. For that reason, I'll ask others here for their opinions before I do.
ReiseReise
Well-known member
This is a common theme when it comes to the mention of "restoration" on this forum, and I disagree with it completely. To bring back the car analogy, consider the aforementioned Camaro: if you find a hulk of a Camaro sitting in someone's backyard, in primer with rust coming through, interior in tatters, some lame bumper stickers added throughout the years... can anyone argue that this is all part of the "history of the car", that it would actually not be worth more if restored? I see no reason why firearms should be any different. And if modifications/alterations are part of something's "history", then how is the restoration of that article not also part of its history? That is, where does "history" and modification stop, and "restoration" begin?
It all depends on what you want out of your article: if you want an untouched piece of history, then don't restore; if you want something that looks, works and represents like how the article was when it was new, restore. Simple as that.
If something is "restored" but sold as "original", then that is fraud. If someone restores a rifle and sells it as "restored", then I see no crime committed. If someone down the road calls it "original", that's not the original restorer's fault.
M1903A3
Keeper of the Def's Head
Agreed but as a car guy, you would not be restamping engine blocks to get them within the acceptable time frame (up to 6 months before the vehicle assembly date) you would be looking for a CORRECT engine block. An Impala with a V-8 in 1969 has a "BOPC" C-clip positraction and you would need to KNOW that and find one with the correct date codes. Same with interior and other parts. That's why original build sheets are a great find, they tell you exactly how the car was assembled with what options.
The same process exists for "restoring" a K98 except I have yet to find a build sheet for one under the back seat or inside the headliner. "Correct" stocks can be found, late enough rifles with unserialed barrel bands can have "correct" bands put on, but nowhere in EITHER HOBBY is anyone falsifying markings. That's why "all numbers matching" Z-11 Impalas and RT/SE Hemi Challengers go for such big money, they ARE as built.
In the case of the original poster's rifle, it would not be a good investment to restore it, because the defaced markings render the main piece of the firearm unoriginal in a non/restorable way without fakery. He would be better off to purchase another gun to restore in that fashion or perhaps save up for a really nice one off the trader here!!
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ReiseReise
Well-known member
Not serial numbers, maybe, but the automotive equivalent of adding a correct WaA to an otherwise-unstamped part would be something like re-painting an underhood inspection mark, which as you know is done all the time during high-accuracy car restorations. Matching numbers will always be king - of any hobby - but cleaning-up and detailing those matching parts is also part of a restoration.
sheepdog
Potential Future Early War Armchair Internet Expe
The history of a car and a WWII battle rifle are as different as night and day. The blood of someone who gave his life fighting for whatever cause may be on that rifle. Quite different than whatever you find in a backseat left over from some conquest years ago. 
ReiseReise
Well-known member
The history of a car and a WWII battle rifle are as different as night and day. The blood of someone who gave his life fighting for whatever cause may be on that rifle. Quite different than whatever you find in a backseat left over from some conquest years ago.
This history may not be that different: unless you have some documented proof of either, their histories are all just stories and your own imagination.
Also, as an avid car guy and nostalgic sort, do not trivialize the heart, soul and emotion of the one or many owners that go along with a car.
Man 34, I thought it was a simple question. I'm guessing you have a Romanian 98 by looking a the 'Eagles'.
As far as stamps no. The steel is to old aka hard and the stamps would be cheap junk, save your money.
Now let me guess; Romanian, I think when the Romanian gov. quit/switch sides/ stabbed in the back... the Romanian
solders where instructed to remove all German insignias. I have one, metal is shiny and marks look like a bayonet took them out.
So it would be your 98's history.
As far as stamps no. The steel is to old aka hard and the stamps would be cheap junk, save your money.
Now let me guess; Romanian, I think when the Romanian gov. quit/switch sides/ stabbed in the back... the Romanian
solders where instructed to remove all German insignias. I have one, metal is shiny and marks look like a bayonet took them out.
So it would be your 98's history.
This is the exact reason that I gave for not restoring something. Because it will later be sold as original (even if not by the restorer).
ReiseReise
Well-known member
But worrying about what some third, fourth, etc. party MAY do with your items is no reason to not restore something for your own pleasure - or even profit, if someone's willing to pay well for a restored item that is declared as such.
heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
Hey, declared is fine. But what of the next seller? I'm not trying to play moral police however tons of people get phucked on any given week by this stuff. I own a constructed stock mismatch of a sporter rescue. Tommy stock with all matching metal. Not tricking anyone with that rifle. I think even the 'innocent' restoration in the hands of the 2nd or 3rd owner might not come out so honestly?