Letter "P" and letter "K" marking on K98k stocks
- Thread starter Stephan98k
- Start date
flynaked
Repo Field Gear Collector
Yeah that’s typical depot practice. At the same time depot rifles can have some odd markings that are outside the scope of as manufactured rifles. May want to start this rifle as it’s own thread. Looks like Kassel on the wrist.
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heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
I hope we didn't get off on a bad foot. I'm pretty sure I saw research, maybe yours? regarding Geco finished Ruhrstahl barrels with e/280? Especially
'38? Again it's certainly possible I'm completely wrong. I'm so new to trending compared to you guys.
heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
The book confirms... Just saying.
heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
I think this is not the same P by both font and size. And it's not laminate which would break that trend. Maybe some other thoughts?
Only once recorded for ordnance spares and it a 1937 dated blank. It also ended with a lot number, not the blank provider. Geco started making barrels late in 1937 so far as i can tell, the only 37 is e/280, all 38's are e/26 and not a huge number recorded. Most Geco's are 39-40, they linger into 1941 under code "cxm" they must have stopped for time until 1944 when they picked up a contract with Gustloff and made a decent number of barrels, all 1944-45 dated.
I do not know where the research you are referring to is located, Mike & Bruce did include snapshots of barrel coding in each chapter, where it was useful to explain a theory, but I know of no one that has a actual mfg wide project going. Stephan possibly/probably and Ken Huddle perhaps, both are trenders; Ken is the only one that I know of who does extensive datasheets, though most of his doesn't deal in detail with specific rifles, rather broad application to maker-dates. Some probably do BC research within their specialty, Mike surely does, though I do not know how extensive it is. Anyway, we aren't off on a bad foot at all, if you mean hostility of animosity.. I was just stating why I think it is ERMA and why it probably isn't Geco, which I can say I am surer than ever its ERMA with the forward slashes separating the lots from the date, probably EE (in a circle) 235 (lot can vary) 38 Ru e/280 x3
It wasn't intended as an insult, as it turned out waffenamt e/280 I didn't tie to Geco at first, I thought it unlikely they made barrels with e/280, but they must have made a few under this inspector, probably right before he departed, - only one example since I started the BC project. Had you not said Geco I wouldn't have thought to look into them as a possibility, and I could have been wrong (I usually triple check stuff like this before posting), but by chance I guessed the most likely (ERMA) and was right. Under the stock you will find EE and the rest of the lot, probably 235, there are several that fit that/this pattern known.
I also agree with the others, Kl-Kassel, looks damn honest and considering its condition its amazing its this matching. Usually these types of rifles (builds from a salvaged/reclaimed receiver) are hard to find depot original like this and when this rough they have been through a few bad owners, good that this one survived.
I do not know where the research you are referring to is located, Mike & Bruce did include snapshots of barrel coding in each chapter, where it was useful to explain a theory, but I know of no one that has a actual mfg wide project going. Stephan possibly/probably and Ken Huddle perhaps, both are trenders; Ken is the only one that I know of who does extensive datasheets, though most of his doesn't deal in detail with specific rifles, rather broad application to maker-dates. Some probably do BC research within their specialty, Mike surely does, though I do not know how extensive it is. Anyway, we aren't off on a bad foot at all, if you mean hostility of animosity.. I was just stating why I think it is ERMA and why it probably isn't Geco, which I can say I am surer than ever its ERMA with the forward slashes separating the lots from the date, probably EE (in a circle) 235 (lot can vary) 38 Ru e/280 x3
It wasn't intended as an insult, as it turned out waffenamt e/280 I didn't tie to Geco at first, I thought it unlikely they made barrels with e/280, but they must have made a few under this inspector, probably right before he departed, - only one example since I started the BC project. Had you not said Geco I wouldn't have thought to look into them as a possibility, and I could have been wrong (I usually triple check stuff like this before posting), but by chance I guessed the most likely (ERMA) and was right. Under the stock you will find EE and the rest of the lot, probably 235, there are several that fit that/this pattern known.
I also agree with the others, Kl-Kassel, looks damn honest and considering its condition its amazing its this matching. Usually these types of rifles (builds from a salvaged/reclaimed receiver) are hard to find depot original like this and when this rough they have been through a few bad owners, good that this one survived.
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
I talked to Jon Speed about it, but there's nothing in TL 1/1003 (Vorläufige Technische Lieferbedingungen für Karabiner 98k - Preliminary technical delivery conditions for K98k) about this topic. Thanks to the help of Jon I have a list from TL 1/1003 with the important documents for us. We would need the following preliminary technical delivery conditions:
TL 1023 - Technical delivery conditions for blanks made of laminated wood
TL 5200 - Conditions for wood
TL 6333 - Technical delivery conditions for wood impregnation oil
TL 6341 - Conditions for gluing of wood parts
TL 1023 - Technical delivery conditions for blanks made of laminated wood
TL 5200 - Conditions for wood
TL 6333 - Technical delivery conditions for wood impregnation oil
TL 6341 - Conditions for gluing of wood parts
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
Hello Tod,
I don't want to be rude, but I have to tell you something and I hope you understand my motivation. Usually I like also posts that are not relevant to the topic and sometimes they are even helpful. But in this case, wouldn't it be more helpful if you start your own thread about these questions? I spend hundreds of hours researching, search in archives and buy contemporary books just to find answers to questions about the K98k stock material etc. that are interesting to all of us. Today I found important new insights again and actually I want to share them here but somehow I loose the desire. Because of the many non-topic comments in this thread the informations get lost.
Regards,
Stephan
I don't want to be rude, but I have to tell you something and I hope you understand my motivation. Usually I like also posts that are not relevant to the topic and sometimes they are even helpful. But in this case, wouldn't it be more helpful if you start your own thread about these questions? I spend hundreds of hours researching, search in archives and buy contemporary books just to find answers to questions about the K98k stock material etc. that are interesting to all of us. Today I found important new insights again and actually I want to share them here but somehow I loose the desire. Because of the many non-topic comments in this thread the informations get lost.
Regards,
Stephan
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
Thank you very much Craig!
Yesterday I had already announced that I discovered something important. I have to admit that I was wrong in my first post with Kaseinleim and Phenol-Formaldehydharzleim. With the type of glue I was wrong, but luckily the new information still suport my theory with the meaning of the letter "K" and "P". Now we even have period evidence.
The answer I could find in the book "Tempered woods and wood-like construction and materials - Definition and markings" written in 1942 by Prof. Dr. Ing. F. Kollmann (Springer-Verlag Berlin Heidelberg GmbH).
Here is the relevant excerpt:
You can see, the Kaseinleim is abbreviated with the letter "C". The letter "K" stands for Kauritleim and the letter "P" stands for Pressalleim. Pressalleim belongs to the same group like Kauritleim and is a synthetic resin glue. The "Pressal" is a melamine resin glue mixed with additives for the wet-proof gluing of plywood and was manufactured by Henkel & Cie. GmbH in Düsseldorf.
Already in 1929 the company I.G.-Farben launched Kaurit synthetic resin glue on the market. The Kaurit had the advantage over the previously used casein glue that it was more waterproof than this. But a very high accuracy of fit was necessary to achieve perfect bonding, in addition for larger seam there was a risk of shrinkage and embrittlement of the seam. In Germany the raw materials became scarce or they were partially not available at all. Despite the known disadvantages the Kauritleim was still used. As example in September 1944 there was a meeting in Oberndorf, a stock supplier had to visit Mauser because of problems with their laminate stocks. A high proportion of stocks had delamination problems and the reason was, the Kauritleim had already entered into the hardening process at the time of compression because of the great heat at that time. Because of all these problems, the laminate supplier has promised that Kauritleim will be replaced in the further deliveries with another resin glue that eradicates the disadvantages of the Kauritleim.
Regards,
Stephan
Yesterday I had already announced that I discovered something important. I have to admit that I was wrong in my first post with Kaseinleim and Phenol-Formaldehydharzleim. With the type of glue I was wrong, but luckily the new information still suport my theory with the meaning of the letter "K" and "P". Now we even have period evidence.
The answer I could find in the book "Tempered woods and wood-like construction and materials - Definition and markings" written in 1942 by Prof. Dr. Ing. F. Kollmann (Springer-Verlag Berlin Heidelberg GmbH).
Here is the relevant excerpt:
You can see, the Kaseinleim is abbreviated with the letter "C". The letter "K" stands for Kauritleim and the letter "P" stands for Pressalleim. Pressalleim belongs to the same group like Kauritleim and is a synthetic resin glue. The "Pressal" is a melamine resin glue mixed with additives for the wet-proof gluing of plywood and was manufactured by Henkel & Cie. GmbH in Düsseldorf.Already in 1929 the company I.G.-Farben launched Kaurit synthetic resin glue on the market. The Kaurit had the advantage over the previously used casein glue that it was more waterproof than this. But a very high accuracy of fit was necessary to achieve perfect bonding, in addition for larger seam there was a risk of shrinkage and embrittlement of the seam. In Germany the raw materials became scarce or they were partially not available at all. Despite the known disadvantages the Kauritleim was still used. As example in September 1944 there was a meeting in Oberndorf, a stock supplier had to visit Mauser because of problems with their laminate stocks. A high proportion of stocks had delamination problems and the reason was, the Kauritleim had already entered into the hardening process at the time of compression because of the great heat at that time. Because of all these problems, the laminate supplier has promised that Kauritleim will be replaced in the further deliveries with another resin glue that eradicates the disadvantages of the Kauritleim.
Regards,
Stephan
M1903A3
Keeper of the Def's Head
Sir you are to be commended!! What a great find you have made! Could this also refer to the “C” that we see on the keel of so many stocks?
Outstanding detective work Stephan! It makes perfect sense to me. Thank you!
David
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is very interesting.
heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
Great work and it seems now without a doubt you've found the answer! I wonder how hard was it to find this book in Germany? I tried several search patterns here and could not get anything.
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
David, the "c" refer to the company Dresdner Tischfabrik (Hermann Menzel), they was the main stock supplier for the Gustloff-Werke. The Menzel stocks have no "P" or "K" markings and therefore you could assume the "c" is a marking of this kind as well, but the letter "c" is on another location at the stock. In 1940 and 1941 you can find some Gustloff rifles with the letter "S" at the stock where usually the "c is located and these stocks was manufactured by Gustloff. The Menzel stocks at Gustloff rifles are marked with the "c" from the beginning of the assembly in 1939 up to 1945 - the "P" marking at other manufacturers was already phased out around 1941/1942.
The German title of the book is "Vergütete Hölzer und holzartige Bau- und Werkstoffe - Begriffe und Zeichen". In the internet you can find some excerpts of the book, unfortunately not the important ones. I had to search for a while to get this book.
Regards,
Stephan
Glue identifier 'K' on stock
Letter 'K' as found on S/42 1937, sn. 6040w. This is my earliest Oberndorf K98k fitted with a laminate stock.
There are others out there found in earlier blocks, 'v' for one. As I posted in the other thread, Mauser
began using laminate stocks in Oct. of 1937.
No laminate supplier code or date code on this rifle.
Letter 'K' as found on S/42 1937, sn. 6040w. This is my earliest Oberndorf K98k fitted with a laminate stock.
There are others out there found in earlier blocks, 'v' for one. As I posted in the other thread, Mauser
began using laminate stocks in Oct. of 1937.
No laminate supplier code or date code on this rifle.
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Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
Thank you very much Bruce, it's a great example.
It would be great if more members join in and show the markings of their rifles. Not only the early laminate stocks from 1937 are important, also the other years. In particular from Mauser Oberndorf 1938 production I would need some data. The good thing is, you don't have to disassemble the rifles, it's enough to mention the code and serial number, in addition the "K" or "P" markings.
It would be great if more members join in and show the markings of their rifles. Not only the early laminate stocks from 1937 are important, also the other years. In particular from Mauser Oberndorf 1938 production I would need some data. The good thing is, you don't have to disassemble the rifles, it's enough to mention the code and serial number, in addition the "K" or "P" markings.
