Third Party Press

Late War Sauer Commercial

Bigdibbs88

"Ach du lieber!"
Blindly stumbled onto this yesterday. Late war Sauer commercial. A few details for the record keepers......stock and handguard are internally numbered (stock is 43 dated in the channel), stock exterior totally devoid of markings, e subc FP, all sight parts numbered, both bands l subc., follower and bayo lug unnumbered.

A few questions, I see no obvious rejected parts here which I find strange? Barrel date appears to be Ce E P. Kriegsmodell only shows sauer going up to the E J block, could this be a D stamped upside down? Any clue why commercials were being made this late?

Thanks guys
 

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great rifle by the way.. I wish I could blindly stumble into one like that !!! This one lacks e/37 proofs but, differs from other late was commercials Ive seen. It has military test proofs ? A different one for sure..
 
That is an odd serif on the bottom of the 'p', so I think it is probably an upside down 'd'.

An odd duck to be sure, but a known variant. Paramilitary sales is about the only thing that makes sense. They obviously were not making up rifles for the civilian market in late 44 and early 45. How these Sauer's escaped the usual commercial proofing is anyone's guess.
 
Actually I think these were made late. No documentation exist to explain any commercial type 98's, it's all speculation.
 
Well, I won't try to explain it, but the BC is very late, ep is the last lot known for JPS, but is known on another rifle - 1944 bcd ser. 94367 (e/749 final of course).
 
Well, I won't try to explain it, but the BC is very late, ep is the last lot known for JPS, but is known on another rifle - 1944 bcd ser. 94367 (e/749 final of course).

Paul, please explain :biggrin1: . Im curious, does the P in the other barrel code you have seen look like this? I was wondering if this was a D stamped upside down.
 
Post #32:

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?86-Gustolf-bcd-4-bcd45-serials-and-data/page4

I have the auction pictures but ask the owner for better pics? The auction pics aren't great but I am pretty sure it is an ep, - all "e" lots are really late barrels, only a few are known and all on bcd/4's (latest ce/44 is "dn")

Paul, please explain :biggrin1: . Im curious, does the P in the other barrel code you have seen look like this? I was wondering if this was a D stamped upside down.
 
so are you ready to start off with some thoughtful speculation to see where it might lead

based on whats in this thread, that speculation should perhaps be based around what we seem to know about this rifle and others of similar kind - not commercially proofed but even more importantly not marked to associate it with any one military branch - that does leave some distinct possibilities...........esp given the time period


Actually I don't think these were made particularly late. No documentation exist to explain any commercial type 98's, it's all speculation.
 
Ok, I disassembled and took a couple pics of the barrel code and WaA37s under the wood. Hopefully they help.

The "P" looks to be very lightly struck with the bottom almost invisible.

On a side note, one of my favorite parts of this rifle: you can see someone was a little heavy on the solder here. There is a pencil eraser-sized glob under the retaining lip too.
 

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My opinion is these rifles exist in the same vein as the other Suhl/Zella-Mehlis commercial type rifles. More than likely the large amount of late 44/45 commercial (or non-military) type rifles were meant for Volkssturm use. The Volkssturm was outside of the Military procurement unless activated for dudy. Being produced in house at Suhl would negate the need for commercial markings normally seen on these, the in house proof testing would satisfy the 1939 proof law requirement. I have a set of photos from another one of these but can't find them, but they are usually misreported as early bcd production.
 
Very nice score, interesting as well! No month-year numbers as seen on the commercials in Kriegsmodell or the 8x57 stampings as well. Are there any other markings on the bolt?
 
I have had district rifles and commercially proofed rifles on my mind lately. I think perhaps our desire to place everything we encounter into simple classications may be making it more difficult to grasp what may be obvious. Kind of like trying to describe the forest based on the descriptions of individual leaves and blades of grass. Considering that we collect the leaves and grass I suppose this is understandable. Regarding the district rifles, I had always assumed that they were produced in a specific district and marked accordingly for use by that civil authority within that district. Now I think more than likely it was a way to mark rifles completely rebuilt and newly manufactured from spare parts by a depot within that district. More than likely the depots were either tasked by higher authority to do this or were responding to the pleas from the units in combat. It seems to me that most of these rifles were put together in the 1941-2 time frame. Shortly after that we have the camp Steyrs, the hand stamp byf's, the N block byf's, and the commercially proofed rifles. Of course I realize that earlier commercial rifles exist. It would be nice to think that every one of these species and sub-species was created for a specific purpose. I think the more obvious answer is that the Germans had a rifle shortage from the start of hostilities and that it only got worse for them. More than likely every one of these non-standard types I mentioned was created for the simple purpose of sending more rifles to the front and that these rifles were indicative of German adaptability and desperation in bad circumstances. They, perhaps more than any other country, were champions of cottage industry. This is evident in all the sub-contracted parts. The reality is that the commercial rifles and many if not all the others simply indicate that the final step in the production of rifles, the fitting and assembly of parts, was also sometimes delegated, or even forced to occur, outside of our narrow, major manufacturer based classification system for these rifles. Given their constant shortage for rifles along with increasing allied pressure on manufacturing and distribution, I think it was the natural response to increase production of parts by small industry, perhaps even down to an almost mom-pop business level, and that when possible the final step of assembly occurred outside of the MO's and Sauers too. In the end all that mattered was that the troops were armed and not how it was achieved.
 
My opinion on this rifle was that it was a depot or shop assembly in the JPS area. Farb ID's it as JPS assembly for a commercial type contract, and says he's seen these. What's interesting is that it appears as a bcd 4 receiver / JPS e/37 finished rifle in about all parts respects, but is not final inspected e/37, and of course the bolt numbering on the bolt stem is quite different.

JPS was an assembly area. Who is to say they didn't have a "custom house" or other assembly areas outside WaA inspection which would have assembled this for use by Volksturm or regional defense, etc.? I collect reworks / rebuilds / repairs, and while some are consistent (e.g., Su4, Su27, Mz 8, etc.), some are not.

I think it is a matter of sorting these into categories:
1) Factory assembly/manuf. from reclaimed/recycled, or parts from other manuf.;
2) Depot repairs/reworks
3) Depot builds
4) Small custom shop (factory) or cottage industry (small custom gunmaker) builds (e.g., the "commercials).

Then there is end user........
 
I could buy that on most other examples but, this one shows the same exact numbering as "in house" JPS k98s. The font, even the rake and the spacing of the numbers is exact.
 
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