Late war helmets

[RyanE]

This is why I don't collect helmets. It is a total mess.

 

[Hambone]

I do not foresee that occurring. What you see here is just the surface of whats been happening. What is down below originated on the Valhalla forum that he and another guy now own. (GHW)

I do think there was bitterness over my publishing a lot number book when they realized I had used info from their site. Also, I think they had always intended to publish their own book someday and were angry when I did. After my banning there, they locked up their lot number list (and indeed their entire site) so no one but members can access it.

Secondly, I came out (don't get me wrong) in the lot number book critical of the Champagne SS decal. This controversial SS decal has in the past been more or less supported at the Valhalla site and by big name SS helmet collectors/researchers. Using the book, I think a lot of collectors are beginning to see how Champagne SS decals appear on nearly every make and model of WWII German helmet, similar to the way the Ed Strache Heer decal appears (a Heer decal widely believed to have been postwar applied).

This discovery may send shock waves throughout the SS helmet collecting community.

So, IMO it all boils down to: Someone else wrote the lot number book instead of them, and someone else 'discovered' that the Champagne SS decal has major issues instead of them.

Well, I am a believer in the truth and transparency. You won't get banned here for a contrary opinion because sometimes those contrary opinions are the right ones, or at least strengthen and prove the right ones either way. Again, I like Doug B personally and support his integrity on the XRF issue.

Unrelated to anyone in particular, I also know that the 3R trinket/lid side of collecting has much going on behind the scenes which is many times not on the level, and certainly not transparent.

 

[M45]

Late Austrian Police helmet

Late Austrian Police helmet

EDIT: Not police but a fire helmet. Austrian policed used mostly transitional helmets, I'm told.

 

[M45]

M45 ventless sighting ?

A possible M45 ventless helmet sighting on youtube at 1:38/2:40

1:37 to 1:39 with some movement.

Greatest Tank Battles- Battle of the Bulge: The Germans Strike!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx8hmTORwfE

 

[Hambone]

I certainly don't see a vent nor any indication of a plugged vent which could have been done to stop wind / wind noise or cold air.

 

[M45]

Volkssturm quist m42

VOLKSSTURM QUIST M42

I believe this to be a Volkssturm helmet with home-made liner/strap. It has a thick, brushed on black finish. The shell may have been a factory reject.

 

[M45]

Strange gladiator helmet

An unusual gladiator variant with 'economy' styling. A period photo that I believe shows the ST. Vitus Cathedral in Prague.

As such, I suspect this is a latewar Czech variant of the gladiator.

EDIT: Luftwaffe decal likely added postwar.

 

[M45]

Unusual visor

Unusual visor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK4HV56Qj_E

15:08

It looks like it is a visor modification of some sort for flak gunners ?

 

[CanadianAR]

Unusual visor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK4HV56Qj_E

15:08

It looks like it is a visor modification of some sort for flak gunners ?

I think its just shadow on that one. If you zoom it in bigtime you can follow the visor in the shadow. IMHO

 

[M45]

Yes, I see it now. Possibly a chinstrap over the top of the visor as well.

 

[tjg79]

Secondly, I came out (don't get me wrong) in the lot number book critical of the Champagne SS decal. This controversial SS decal has in the past been more or less supported at the Valhalla site and by big name SS helmet collectors/researchers. Using the book, I think a lot of collectors are beginning to see how Champagne SS decals appear on nearly every make and model of WWII German helmet, similar to the way the Ed Strache Heer decal appears (a Heer decal widely believed to have been postwar applied).

This discovery may send shock waves throughout the SS helmet collecting community.

So, IMO it all boils down to: Someone else wrote the lot number book instead of them, and someone else 'discovered' that the Champagne SS decal has major issues instead of them.

Do you think all Champagne SS decals are fake? If that's so and the evidence mounts, it will cause major issues for some lid dealers with lifetime guarantees of authenticity.

There seems to be a lot of rationalization about their pattern of application. See the 2009 dated blog post below:

http://ww2germanhelmets.com/Blog-1.html

Can you imagine the howls if the preponderance of the evidence indicates an entire class of high-dollar lids are fakes?

Keep up the good work.

 

[M45]

tjg79, my research seems to differ from others on this matter. For others, the Champagne SS decal on hkp, NS and late CKL helmets are factory applied 100% good.
In my lot# research, I have found patterns of factory decal applications, certain types and certain time-periods. In short, the Champagne SS decals seem to break all of the rules as per factory and time-period. They are found on nearly every make and model of WWII German helmet (M35/M40/M42) as opposed to other factory SS decals (ET, Q, EF). Also, the SS champagnes are found in known no-decal territory where no factory decals should be seen. And to make my point even clearer, champagne SS decals have been found on helmets with 1944 dated liner bands (Factory SS decal application officially ceased on 11/1/43 as per Ludwig Baer).

This SS Champagne list below is found on the website you linked. Some of the last Thale decals are found near the 3500 mark. You can see how SS champagnes go well beyond the last known Thale decaled helmets.


M42 3238 clk 62 SD SS steel liner 1943
M42 3318 ckl 66 SD SS steel liner 1943
M42 3911 ckl 68 SD SS steel liner
M42 4291 ckl 70 SD SS steel liner
M42 4516 ckl 66 SD SS steel liner 1943
M42 4761 ckl 64 SD SS steel liner
M42 4956 ckl 66 SD SS steel liner

 

[tjg79]

NS/SE (champagne)
The rarest of the major makers and perhaps the most controversial of all SS decals is the NS/SE or Champagne decal. It is called this because of the pinkish/bronzish "champagne" hue the patina takes over time. The decal is primarily found on prewar M35 NS helmets and on occasion found on SE M35s. They are found on some ckl (ET) marked and hkp (SE) marked M42s however those with lot numbers on ckl helmets higher than 5000 can be suspected as postwar applied hence the controversy. They can also be found on reissues with the thought that these were a contract decal similar to the pre-war CA Pocher and used as needed on short contracts, typically with makers NS and SE. There are many threads to research on this decal on the GHW forum for more information.

The defining quality of the NS/SE decal is the champagne patina these develop and a sharper similarity to the ET runes with a hard break to the shield. These can be found with thicker/thinner borders and various runic alignments within the shield.

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ss-helmet-forum/ss-runic-decal-reference-section-167624/

Lot numbers higher than 3500 vs 5000.

Seems as though some don't want to consider lowering the suspect lot number threshold likely for financial reasons.

 

[M45]

One problem is that collectors focus in on the decal itself and are mesmerized by the graphics, the style, the beauty. Since they are found on original helmets, they must be good.

But I think we should focus out, looking at other SS decal patterns, shell types, and lot number ranges. Champagne SS decals applied indiscriminately post war would show the very thing we see today; only a spotty presence in the decal era, and a heavy presence in the no-decal era.

You will also see a lot of pock-marking and contrived wear on these, even in SS-Steel.

 

[M45]

M17-35

M17-35

Apparently a prototype derived from a cut-down M17 design to produce a helmet suitable for mobile warfare. estimated 1934 era.

M17 characteristics: raised edge, frontal plate lugs.
M35 characteristics: small size.

66cm shell size, believed to be a Thale (ET) product.
Looks like a WWI style field green paint.

 

[Unutt]

Helmet woes

This is why I don't collect helmets. It is a total mess.

Tell me about it.

I owned one SS helmet in my 6 or 7 years of collecting (80s). There was no internet to obtain opinions. The SS decal looked good the day I bought it, and the day I sold it. I told the dealer to whom I sold it that I thought it was real, but I could not promise. He told me it looked 'real enough'. He was a well known militaria dealer here in the Dallas area. I never bought another German helmet after that day, aside from the 1st pattern eagle Luft which I just bought a few months ago at a garage sale.

I was hoping to get more comments about the helmets I posted, but I received zero comments about most of them.

Related to being banned, I too was banned from Valhalla. A few years back, I joined and posted some pix of one of my helmets. The moderator sent me an email informing me that I had not pictured the correct locations on the helmet. I do not remember how I responded, but it must have been caustic, because he told me the forum did not need me. I was only a member for about 48 hours. I did not even look at another forum until I saw this one a few months back.

I still love the look and feel of a decent field helmet.

 

[RH Scott]

What are the "correct locations" to take pix of a helmet? I had no idea there was a set place.

 

[mauser99]

GHW has rules.. I know most forums don't so many cant grasp the concept. The rules are clearly stated on the forum and they are expected to be read before you post items there.
They want all the angles shown and top and interior and Lot and size stamps posted. This is done for reasons as to track lot#'s and patterns. Also the keep fakers and humpers honest.

Kind of like what guys do here. track rifles so if they show up embellished later the photo history is there.
Like that BSW that was on gun broker recently..

 

[Unutt]

Helmet woes

He is absolutely correct.

I failed to take pix of the heat number, or some other component. Perhaps the condition of the rivets, etc. In either event, I was prepared to do such a thing, but I did not get the chance.

 

[Hambone]

Not to jump a thread, and I'm going to transfer this discussion to its own thread so as to not litter on M45's thread, but my thoughts: some forum moderators are infatuated with the "authority" they have. Perhaps they have no authority anywhere else, and some forums are overly rigid. This is a hobby.