Kar98k "Circle A" proofs, anybody know anything about this gun?

[armenjs]

Circle A

What I have seen about circle A is PARTS MARK, BERLIN, Borsigwalde Mauser Factory. I believe these parts were used to or assemble but not for military use, scarce.
As for as safe to use, check with Gunsmith and check the barrel. I don't think the gas pressure would be an issue as the case being a .22 cal.
Have the rifle checked out I think its worth $ !. Very nice.

 

[mrfarb]

Don't forget about the Polish rifles with the Circle A proofs. I just don't think there is any way this rifle was assembled like this in Germany, the Germans were fanatical about the proof laws. It could have been done outside of the authority of Germany, but where and for who is a mystery.

 

[bruce98k]

Current thread

Dont rule out German assembly brother! Damn I wish I hadnt said that. Calling Farb my brother even though he had a small part in Kriegsmodell and is helping out with a few pages for Vol.1 is like
dating your sister - ouch.

Anyway, the interesting aspect of this is first the seeming connected serial range of the known examples and second the existence of one of these in RC config.
I believe that the example in this thread uses a rejected Lubecker receiver. Just one more data point.

Attached is an image of the lower face of a BLM 1938 receiver, and notice the assembly number stamped on the front ring of the rec.

 

[nw00738]

hahaha

you guys are taking me on an emotional roller coaster of excitement and uncertainty.lol

 

[mrfarb]

Dont rule out German assembly brother!

Not ruling it out, it's just against the law! Even the SS had to comply with German proof laws!

I'd say you nailed the receiver- I'd go so far as to say the barrel code too, look at it!

I think the facts should be laid bare:

1.- Scrubbed wartime/prewar German 98k components used
2.- Circle A liberally applied to almost all components
3.- Specific serial range for this variant seems to suggest 3000 or so examples
4.- Examples turn up in Russian Capture imports which lends the variant to WW2 use
5.- By all previous experience German proof law seems to have not been adhered to with this variation, unless the Circle A represents the firing proof?


I don't think this variation is associated with Mauser Oberndorf even though the Circle A is known to be used there.

PS. Everyone knows you only did 3 photos for Kreigsmodell, and even those were cartoons.

 

[mrfarb]

you guys are taking me on an emotional roller coaster of excitement and uncertainty.lol

Well, you own "the unknown". This type of thing makes collectors bounce odd ideas off each other- sometimes a plausible theory erupts, or a document surfaces that gives some clues. Your rifle is the most complete ever seen! By the way, did the stock have any markings on the interior? Any buttplate markings? Waffenamts anywhere on the rifle?

 

[nw00738]

stock numbers

I will have to check when I return home, I am at school for the week. I will upload on thursday or friday.
Thanks again for the insight and your interest

 

[Turbo Archie]

Is there no Mod98 on the side?

Also, how is the rear site marked?


I have a front band. I';ll have to see what the number is.




..

 

[mto7464]

I plan to ask the lady who gave it to me where her father got it. I am unsure where in Europe her father was when he picked it up. But it has been in his posession and later hers since the end of the war.

Don't rely just on her memory. Get his service info if she has it and maybe you can trace were he was.
As an example, I treated a guy the other day who's grandpa was Patton's personal tank driver and the famous pic of the guy peeing in the Rhine is his grandpa. What?

 

[nw00738]

Don't rely just on her memory. Get his service info if she has it and maybe you can trace were he was.
As an example, I treated a guy the other day who's grandpa was Patton's personal tank driver and the famous pic of the guy peeing in the Rhine is his grandpa. What?

My father spoke with her this morning, She said her father served in Patton's 3rd army. He didnt get to Europe until after D Day. I dont have any more info at the moment, but I will try to get it.

 

[nw00738]

I dismantled the bolt

and I found even more circle a markings
also the buttplate does not seem to have any markings
the stock has even more A's than I realized and the stock has matching serials to the barrel and receiver. There is a faint Circle A on the bottom right of the adjustable sight also, as well as the number 39. Does this mean 1939, and therefore the whole gun is 1939?

 

[RyanE]

That 39 is just another serial number. Originally, it would have matched the serial number of the gun. It is very interesting that all the other parts are mismatched but all have the Circle A proofs. I guess that these rifles must have all been in service together, then? Would a part have made it to serialization before it made it to the reject bin?

It does seem to bear a resemblance to the Lübeck gun Bruce posted. Might the assembly number tend to support a hypothesis that these were built by Lübeck (perhaps with rejected parts) around '37-'39 outside the WaA system for whatever purpose? Even the serial numbers look kinda Lübeck-y. I'm not certain all of those parts have been scrubbed either--the barrel certainly looks as if it never had any acceptance of any kind except the 'A'. Even depot spares have WaA inspections, right? I think Darrin Weaver reports some blank G41s in his book that may or may not have been sold out the back door to the SS.

If these are post war commie scrubbed rebuilds, it just seems odd that they all seem to fit the same characteristics. The underside of the receiver of the one posted on GB is nearly identical to this one. You would think the rifles being scrubbed would be more or less random.

I'm rambling, but in short I agree with Bruce: I don't think you can rule out pre-1945 German assembly.

 

[THunter]

I dont know if this helps any.

But the mismatched bolt that came in my minty dou. 44 has a phosphated extractor with a circle A proof on it right where you usually see a E/ or WaA. I have no proof of the rifle being a bring back, but IMO its too nice to be a pre 68' import.

The configuration of the bolt itself was odd, the safety, firing pin, shroud and cocking peice were all matching to eachother, phos and from a byf45 (Bruce now owns the guts, we made a trade)

I kept the bolt body which appears to be out of a polish Wz-something (the 5 digit S/N runs the "length" of the root instead of the typical "across" like on normal k98s), the knob was bent down, and the extractor is phos and circle A proofed.

The root does look ground/renumbered, but I am unfamiliar with what country reworked and stamped S/Ns like that. The mention of the word "polish" in these last few pages by different people is interesting.

Just throwing out information, maybe somebody can connect the dots. Not sure if the method of reworking the bolt I have was used by the same country/factory/whatever that these circle A rifles came from.

Interesting that the firing pin pictured above in nw00738's post has what looks like a the remnants of a polish/imperial eagle underneath the circle A!?

IMHO Judging by the german style serial numbering and the presance of griding in places that WaAs and E/ are usually found. These parts and rifles were reworked/assembled post war by people who REALLY hated the germans.

 

[S/42]

I did not read this whole thread, so I may be stepping on already trodden ground.

ANY possibility this has something to do with Spain? Like the A in circle mark seen on a LOT of Spanish rifles of the Anarchists?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_anarchists

Just throwing out an idea. Maybe when they captured weapons - even much later - they remarked them? (though, seems not likely)

 

[mrfarb]

Vulch, I doubt Spanish captured.

nwoo738, your photos are getting much better! This kind of detailed photo job is really helpful. It's very interesting that some of the parts are mismatched but still circle A marked. I think it's clear that these are all rejected parts, some of them without even passing any initial waffenamt acceptance. It's also looking more like Berlin Lubeck manfactured parts.

Is it possible these were assembled by Berlin-Lübecker Maschinenfabrik from piles of rejected parts? I guess so. I agree that many of the serials look like BLM type numbering which could be nothing.

 

[nw00738]

Planning on testing it

I plan on shooting it tomorrow. It seems way more solid than my Spanish M93, and the bore looks very good. I made low pressure rounds with new casings today and dont expect any issues.
As far as the serial numbers are concerned, the barrel, stock,magwell,trigger guard, and the piece that hold the handgaurd on all match. Every part on the bolt has a matching number as well, it just is not the same as the rest of the gun. So there are only 2 different numbers on the gun. It is not that mismatched IMO. Also I noticed that my mauser is stamped 7.91 on the barrel, is this a mistake? because if it is, that would be my guess as to why it was rejected.
thanks,
Nathan

 

[Loewe]

I looked through the Polish rifle files I keep, and here is a chart. Not sure where it came from, origin, importance or relevance BUT there is a circle A (see image)

The root does look ground/renumbered, but I am unfamiliar with what country reworked and stamped S/Ns like that. The mention of the word "polish" in these last few pages by different people is interesting....Interesting that the firing pin pictured above in nw00738's post has what looks like a the remnants of a polish/imperial eagle underneath the circle A!?

 

[nw00738]

Fired it today

Shoots well and no problems

 

[nw00738]

Vulch, I doubt Spanish captured.

nwoo738, your photos are getting much better! This kind of detailed photo job is really helpful. It's very interesting that some of the parts are mismatched but still circle A marked. I think it's clear that these are all rejected parts, some of them without even passing any initial waffenamt acceptance. It's also looking more like Berlin Lubeck manfactured parts.

Is it possible these were assembled by Berlin-Lübecker Maschinenfabrik from piles of rejected parts? I guess so. I agree that many of the serials look like BLM type numbering which could be nothing.

i found a german mark finally.
Nathan

 

[bruce98k]

New data point

I was working on the BLM chapter and the data CD supplied by Eric with his accumulation of data has an interesting image.
Notice the circle A ahead of the reweld spot. This rifle was a Norwegian conversion, so definately taken from wartime German stocks.
Rifle is 38 dated Lubecker.

Thoughts?