Kar98AZ, Kar98A Which is it?

[CloudDancer]

Is there a difference? I see both posted, AZ, and just A.
Mine is a sporterized Erfurt 1917 and it has "20" marked on the barrel, so it went to national police forces post WWI?

I appreciate any help.

 

[chrisftk]

Kar98AZ is an old collector term, which I really don't like. The original usage of AZ was only for a specific trials model based off of the German names for bayonet lug and stacking hook.

The correct period term is Kar 98 and is identified in period documentation as such.

Later when they introduced the Kar98b in the Weimar era, they designated the older World War era carbine as the Kar98a to avoid confusion. I tend to use that nomenclature.

 

[CloudDancer]

Thank you, chrisftk.

I remember now about the bayonet lug and stacking rod after you said that, but you certainly made it all clear.

 

[Zeppelin5000]

It seems the majority of people erroneously call it "az". When they're corrected, they typically refuse to listen...

 

[CloudDancer]

Those people shut keep their mouths shut. You learn by listening. I have a Kar98a.

 

[giorg55]

the carabine itself is a kar98... kar98a is a post ww1 name. Before 1920 they call it kar98,like is wrote on reicever . kar98AZ is correct for pre adoction carabines. for me it's not wrong to use kar98a or kar98az anyway

 

[krukster86]

It sure makes looking up parts for these rifles a challenge on the popular websites. You tend to come across parts using search terms of:
Kar98az, Kar98a, kar98, M98az, k98A, etc.

 

[Warrior1354]

 

[CloudDancer]

 

[Stan]

I suspect the AZ tag will outlive most of us as it's been used for so long and in so many references. Just for "fun" I looked up Kar 98a on wiki (as listed on the Gewehr 98 page) It states there was a Kar 98A(uppercase) that was the original, short barrel carbine from 1902 and the 1908, longer barreled Kar 98AZ later to become the Kar 98a (lowercase). Don't recall reading that before in Storz or Olsen's book. Was the Kar 98A tag just a collector label like the Gew 98M? Apologies for linking the wiki page reference!

Karabiner 98a​

[edit]
Karabiner 98AZ / Karabiner 98a
Not to be confused with the later Karabiner 98k or the earlier Karabiner 98A (uppercase A), the Karabiner 98a (Kar 98a) was a shorter version of the Gewehr 98 originally made for cavalry and support unit use. The Karabiner 98A, adopted in February 1902, had a considerably shorter barrel than the Gewehr 98 and was also lighter at 3.42 kg (7.5 lb) empty. Experiments in 1904 with Karabiner 98A carbines rechambered for the S Patrone cartridge showed excessive recoil and muzzle flash problems, leading to the suspension of production in 1905.[17] The Gewehr Prüfungs Kommission (GPK) started developing a new carbine with a longer barrel and a different stock to address these problems; by the mid-summer of 1907, the longer barrelled prototype carbines showed more acceptable recoil and muzzle blast behavior with the S Patrone.

In January 1908, the Karabiner Model 1898 AZ (Kar 98AZ) was accepted for service. The new features were a small diameter (33 mm (1.30 in)) receiver ring, tapered rather than stepped barrel contour, an L-shaped stacking rod attached to the stock near the muzzle, and a turned-down bolt handle and recess in the stock in the same fashion as the Gewehr 98s sniper variant. The "AZ" stands for "Aufpflanz-und-Zusammensetzvorrichtung",[18] meaning "with bayonet attachment point and stacking rod". At the end of World War I about 1,500,000 short rifles had been produced. In 1923, the AZ was renamed to 'a', as Germany sought to distinguish the model from the newer 'b' and 'k' models.[19]

During World War I, the Karabiner 98a was issued to light infantry, cavalry, mountain troops, and later to assault troops. It was liked because it was lighter and shorter than the Gewehr 98, and was thus better suited for use in trench assaults.

 

[Cyrano4747]

I have to admit, there's a part of me that likes terms that are screwed up like this just because it gives me more angles to look for poorly listed rifles on GB.

Why sure, I'll take your $400 Kar Mod98az.

 

[CloudDancer]

I would pay $400 for the one I own now if I obviously didn't already have it.
1980s gunshow from a barrel full. $35 dollars.
First 3 shot group at around 50 yards was a 3 hole touching, dead on group. I miss my young eyes.

 

[Cyrano4747]

I miss my young eyes.

Meh, I don't. Those things were sitting in a numbskull.

 

[CloudDancer]

Meh, I don't. Those things were sitting in a numbskull.

 

[MichaelWC]

I suspect the AZ tag will outlive most of us as it's been used for so long and in so many references. Just for "fun" I looked up Kar 98a on wiki (as listed on the Gewehr 98 page) It states there was a Kar 98A(uppercase) that was the original, short barrel carbine from 1902 and the 1908, longer barreled Kar 98AZ later to become the Kar 98a (lowercase). Don't recall reading that before in Storz or Olsen's book. Was the Kar 98A tag just a collector label like the Gew 98M? Apologies for linking the wiki page reference!

Karabiner 98a​

[edit]
Karabiner 98AZ / Karabiner 98a
Not to be confused with the later Karabiner 98k or the earlier Karabiner 98A (uppercase A), the Karabiner 98a (Kar 98a) was a shorter version of the Gewehr 98 originally made for cavalry and support unit use. The Karabiner 98A, adopted in February 1902, had a considerably shorter barrel than the Gewehr 98 and was also lighter at 3.42 kg (7.5 lb) empty. Experiments in 1904 with Karabiner 98A carbines rechambered for the S Patrone cartridge showed excessive recoil and muzzle flash problems, leading to the suspension of production in 1905.[17] The Gewehr Prüfungs Kommission (GPK) started developing a new carbine with a longer barrel and a different stock to address these problems; by the mid-summer of 1907, the longer barrelled prototype carbines showed more acceptable recoil and muzzle blast behavior with the S Patrone.

In January 1908, the Karabiner Model 1898 AZ (Kar 98AZ) was accepted for service. The new features were a small diameter (33 mm (1.30 in)) receiver ring, tapered rather than stepped barrel contour, an L-shaped stacking rod attached to the stock near the muzzle, and a turned-down bolt handle and recess in the stock in the same fashion as the Gewehr 98s sniper variant. The "AZ" stands for "Aufpflanz-und-Zusammensetzvorrichtung",[18] meaning "with bayonet attachment point and stacking rod". At the end of World War I about 1,500,000 short rifles had been produced. In 1923, the AZ was renamed to 'a', as Germany sought to distinguish the model from the newer 'b' and 'k' models.[19]

During World War I, the Karabiner 98a was issued to light infantry, cavalry, mountain troops, and later to assault troops. It was liked because it was lighter and shorter than the Gewehr 98, and was thus better suited for use in trench assaults.

Sadly wiki is wrong about the Kar.98A. No surprise there. Some people will call them Kar.98 first pattern and second pattern. Both of those terms are also wrong. The correct term is Kav.Kar.98, Art.Kar.98, Kar.98 1st variant and Kar.98 2nd model. Here is a little history I wrote up about the four models.

With the German Army adopting the Mauser designed Gewehr 1898 in April, 1898, is well known. Also in 1898-1902 two different carbines models appeared. The M98 cavalry known as the Kav.Kar.98 and the M98 artillery carbine also known as the Art.Kar.98. These two carbines replaced the M88 carbine and M91 rifle.
With the world watching the second Boer War, in which mounted Infantry played a key rule in the war. This may have encouraged the ideas to issue a carbine with a attachable bayonet to the cavalry. This carbine design is now known as the Kar.98 1st variant was introduced in Prussia by an Imperial Cabinet Order of the 6th of February 1902 and would be manufactured till 1905.
In October 1903 the Ministry oreder MG detachment to be equipped with a new pattern of carbine. This model would become known as Kar.98 2nd model and also would be manufactured till 1905. However the new carbines for S rounds evinced such great flaws that the Prussian War Ministry ordered the their production to be discontinued as early as January 1905. According to the numbers ascertained by Heinz Lehner, more than 20,000 short carbines were constructed and at least 16,000 of them standard carbines adapted for the S ammunition.
These carbines can be seen in arms museums and private collections.On the other hand, early military Model 98 carbines are generally unknown. The reason is that only a small number was manufactured, from 1898-1905, and most of them went to the Kaiserliche Schutztruppe in Africa and the Deutsches Ostasiatische Expeditionskorps. When Germany lost Great War in 1918 those arms remained in Africa, and only a few have survived to this very day.

 

[Stan]

Sadly wiki is wrong about the Kar.98A. No surprise there. So people will call them Kar.98 first pattern and second pattern. Both of those terms are also wrong. The correct term is Kav.Kar.98, Art.Kar.98, Kar.98 1st variant and Kar.98 2nd model. Here is a little history I wrote up about the four models.

With the German Army adopting the Mauser designed Gewehr 1898 in April, 1898, is well known. Also in 1898-1902 two different carbines models appeared. The M98 cavalry known as the Kav.Kar.98 and the M98 artillery carbine also known as the Art.Kar.98. These two carbines replaced the M88 carbine and M91 rifle.
With the world watching the second Boer War, in which mounted Infantry played a key rule in the war. This may have encouraged the ideas to issue a carbine with a attachable bayonet to the cavalry. This carbine design is now known as the Kar.98 1st variant was introduced in Prussia by an Imperial Cabinet Order of the 6th of February 1902 and would be manufactured till 1905.
In October 1903 the Ministry oreder MG detachment to be equipped with a new pattern of carbine. This model would become known as Kar.98 2nd model and also would be manufactured till 1905. However the new carbines for S rounds evinced such great flaws that the Prussian War Ministry ordered the their production to be discontinued as early as January 1905. According to the numbers ascertained by Heinz Lehner, more than 20,000 short carbines were constructed and at least 16,000 of them standard carbines adapted for the S ammunition.
These carbines can be seen in arms museums and private collections.On the other hand, early military Model 98 carbines are generally unknown. The reason is that only a small number was manufactured, from 1898-1905, and most of them went to the Kaiserliche Schutztruppe in Africa and the Deutsches Ostasiatische Expeditionskorps. When Germany lost Great War in 1918 those arms remained in Africa, and only a few have survived to this very day.

Thank you for that great summary on those early 98 carbines! There seems to be so much bad info out there regarding terminology. Yes, no surprise on the wiki misinformation. I'd never heard of a distinction of upper and lowercase "A" for the different models. Ball's MMROTW also gives an incorrect designation of Kar. 98(a) for the earlier model carbine.

 

[krukster86]

Thank you for that great summary on those early 98 carbines! There seems to be so much bad info out there regarding terminology. Yes, no surprise on the wiki misinformation. I'd never heard of a distinction of upper and lowercase "A" for the different models. Ball's MMROTW also gives an incorrect designation of Kar. 98(a) for the earlier model carbine.

Yeah Ball’s book is an OK reference for general interest but woefully outdated and in some cases just plain wrong.

 

[MichaelWC]

Thank you for that great summary on those early 98 carbines! There seems to be so much bad info out there regarding terminology. Yes, no surprise on the wiki misinformation. I'd never heard of a distinction of upper and lowercase "A" for the different models. Ball's MMROTW also gives an incorrect designation of Kar. 98(a) for the earlier model carbine.

Thank you. I am glad you liked my summary on the early 98 carbines. It was fun to wirte. I also catalog in document known surviving examples.

Known surviving Kav.Kar.98, Art.Kar.98 and Kar.98 1st variant and 2nd model.

I made this list mostly for fun and because I keep track of the ones used by Schutztruppe. I took the list that is in Ball, R. (2011). Mauser Military Rifles of the World (5th ed.). I have added to that list. Of ones I have found over the years. I know there's probably more. If you have one and...

www.k98kforum.com