Kar 98az receiver 1917 Erfurt marking
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OnlyMil
Junior Member
I have heard that "B.S." means "Bahn-Schutz-Polizei" as in "Train-Police" of the Reichsbahn state rail service. I believe the mark was typically seen on the buttstock? It has been a year or so since I looked at one closely. Typically they have the 1920 ownership stamp and blued bolts.
The honest answer is that we don't know. There are a couple versions of a BS marking. They discuss this in the Vol 1 book and several theories have been proposed.
Just my opinion, but this particular one likely related to the Berlin-Spandau depot. The intertwined BS (and KS) version(stock and barrel collar) is something else entirely. Check the Weimar reference section for examples of that.
They are fairly uncommon. Bluing looks wonky on the pic you showed. Also the B on the stock is an imperial era Beech indicator.
Just my opinion, but this particular one likely related to the Berlin-Spandau depot. The intertwined BS (and KS) version(stock and barrel collar) is something else entirely. Check the Weimar reference section for examples of that.
They are fairly uncommon. Bluing looks wonky on the pic you showed. Also the B on the stock is an imperial era Beech indicator.
OnlyMil
Junior Member
Chris would know more, for sure. The intertwined "BS" marking is more the one that I've seen. Again, usually only on the wood. Would agree that the bluing looks really funky, and no 1920 property stamp to definitively prove it stayed in Germany (and was used officially) after the War. Can never say never though. If you read up on the reference threads in the Weimar section it's quite the rabbit hole as I too am reading them now.
In 2005 both Craig Brown and Mark Weiringa (independently) stated they did not think the B.S. in all its forms related to the railroad security or police forces. They gave reasoned thoughts, the size of the organization compared to surviving numbers etc... but Mark stated the best thought (CB may have shared this indirectly depending on interpretation of his comments); we know the three main facilities (HZa) were Berlin-Spandau, Kassel/Cassel and Zeithain, - recently thanks to Wolfgang we know Hannover also served as an ordnance depot.
Anyway, the standard accepted by most experienced collectors is B.S. equals Berlin-Spandau (HZa), though it is possible the intertwined BS on the stock (a P.08 magazine marked B.S. has been photographed by a German collector in 2005) and the West Point collection MP.18 very well could be related to the railroad police, but then you have the barrel shoulder intertwined BS, sometimes appearing to be intertwined KS, which confuses the intertwined vs. B.-S. association (sometimes both appear on a rifle together) so who the hell knows at this stage... I will say it will be a German collector digging through an archive that will find the indisputable answer, not some American fumbling around with rifles or trends!
Anyway, the standard accepted by most experienced collectors is B.S. equals Berlin-Spandau (HZa), though it is possible the intertwined BS on the stock (a P.08 magazine marked B.S. has been photographed by a German collector in 2005) and the West Point collection MP.18 very well could be related to the railroad police, but then you have the barrel shoulder intertwined BS, sometimes appearing to be intertwined KS, which confuses the intertwined vs. B.-S. association (sometimes both appear on a rifle together) so who the hell knows at this stage... I will say it will be a German collector digging through an archive that will find the indisputable answer, not some American fumbling around with rifles or trends!
Thanks again for great information. I think I will pass, nothing against the rifle, but if a very good chance was train police then I would snap it up. (The lack of 1920 also)
Speaking of 1920 , there is another Erfurt 1917 I have seen at a show that had R.W.S.I with 1920 under it.
So I would take that one was included / retained under the The Treaty of Versailles ?
Speaking of 1920 , there is another Erfurt 1917 I have seen at a show that had R.W.S.I with 1920 under it.
So I would take that one was included / retained under the The Treaty of Versailles ?
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I never take a 1920 as absolute proof of where a rifle may have been. Plenty of my 98M don't have it, yet they ended up in government hands to be reworked. I also have a matching S28 with a fake 1920 property mark to "fool" inspectors of the age of the gun.
The RWSI was on the receiver?
Grabenkater
Senior Member
I have a BS marked Kar98a but it does not bear the 1920 marking. The bolt is mismatched but it is blue. I have always thought the BS marking is Bahnschutze.
Cyrano4747
Well-known member
This is from forever ago, but whatever I'm still going to reply.
I don't think it's likely that we'll get something from the archives, and personally I think there is probably a better chance of it coming from observations of surviving weapons.
Is it impossible that there could be archival material that answers this? No. There's always a possibility. But I consider it a very faint possibility. A huge proportion of the records relating to the Imperial military in general, and arms procurement in particular, were destroyed in WW2. Most of what remains has been pretty exhaustively cataloged and researched in the years since, especially when the disparate archival holdings started getting put back together post-unification. Again, not impossible, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Maybe a mislabeled box etc.
On the other hand, we are still in the relative infancy of research and trending being done on the weapons themselves, at least insofar as the holdings of American collectors are concerned. Even if you look at a place like this, with a ton of really impressive work done, what percentage of the total population of weapons in the US would you say we have direct access to? How many guns are there in the safes of folks who either aren't part of the collecting community (i.e. it's Grandpa's war rifle sitting behind some deer getters and maybe an AR) or are but don't post online? How many more are in non-private collections, e.g. museums and the like?
Note that I'm not saying I think there is a high likelihood of this being cracked by collectors, either. But it would surprise me a lot less than getting something definitive from archival sources.
You're right this was 3 years ago and many do trends work, I didn't invent it (MarkW, Ken Huddle, PeterK, Joe Steen and Harlan can share in that distinction) and there are many on the forum here that pursue it, in their own way.
I am familiar with what some German collectors can do (all here among us, Wolfgang, Bernd, and Stephan among others like in the P08 community) they have done more to our understanding than trends work will take us alone.
I am familiar with what some German collectors can do (all here among us, Wolfgang, Bernd, and Stephan among others like in the P08 community) they have done more to our understanding than trends work will take us alone.
Cyrano4747
Well-known member
Agreed that trends alone aren't sufficient. But I do think they're a vital part of piecing together the gaping holes that exist in the archival records. The two need to work together. I'm just always skeptical (although happy to be proven wrong) when it comes to getting very specific answers to smaller questions like this from the surviving records.
