K98k Converted from Karab. 98b/Gew. 98?

[Loewe]

Paul,
I was hoping you would chime In. Would you be of the same impression with my rifle, that the modification was not German done. (I think you have the data on mine, including barrel markings in your trends work)

My thoughts, maybe wishful thinking, is the two are German mods, perhaps very early when only two firms we’re making K98ks, and the German military was rapidly expanding. The fact that both rifles are RCs I think supports these being German done. We know the Russians “captured“ Gew98s, 98Ms, Kar 98b long rifles, as their parts routinely turn up on RC K98ks.
But I have never seen or heard of an intact Gew98 style rifle being a RC.
It appears the Russians scrapped non standard length mausers as they did non-essential parts like cleaning rods and lock screws during their refurb process. To me this is evidence, not proof, that these rifles were in their present form when the Russians acquired them.

The question remains who did the modifications. My wishful thinking theory, in 1934 and 35 when only Mauser and Sauer were making K98ks, some government/military organization was put to work modifying long rifles. But I have nothing to support this theory.

Frank, I hazard to guess on this rifle, mere speculation based on very limited observations... it is a near fact that the 98k was derived from altering (shortening) 98b's to 98k length (actually three different lengths experimented, one 98k length) and not on the Standard Modell of WMO. The experiments led to the 98k but was deemed too expensive for widespread implementation (Simson was considered for the mass alterations but considered too expensive).

Wolfgang provided some documents to this effect though it was years (more than a decade ago, probably two) ago and I went into some detail (speculation) on interpretation at my attempt to create a 98k version of Gew98.com (I let it go as it was time consuming and my interest in 98k isn't what it was 40 years ago, besides money is tight on SS and raising livestock..).

I will see if I can find the drafts from K98k.com and post it to you... it would be on my main computer and based upon my translations of German documents (which are pretty "interpretive" and worse than Storz sorry English translations)

 

[Ricedrizzle]

Paul,
I was hoping you would chime In. Would you be of the same impression with my rifle, that the modification was not German done. (I think you have the data on mine, including barrel markings in your trends work)

My thoughts, maybe wishful thinking, is the two are German mods, perhaps very early when only two firms we’re making K98ks, and the German military was rapidly expanding. The fact that both rifles are RCs I think supports these being German done. We know the Russians “captured“ Gew98s, 98Ms, Kar 98b long rifles, as their parts routinely turn up on RC K98ks.
But I have never seen or heard of an intact Gew98 style rifle being a RC.
It appears the Russians scrapped non standard length mausers as they did non-essential parts like cleaning rods and lock screws during their refurb process. To me this is evidence, not proof, that these rifles were in their present form when the Russians acquired them.

The question remains who did the modifications. My wishful thinking theory, in 1934 and 35 when only Mauser and Sauer were making K98ks, some government/military organization was put to work modifying long rifles. But I have nothing to support this theory.

To add to this theory, it wouldn’t make sense for the Russians to even go about shortening the long rifles into k98k spec, considering how many intact k98k’s they captured along with spare/salvageparts, tooling, etc. It would be way too labor intensive for no benefit. It seems more likely that the Germans did this when they needed every rifle they could get.

 

[heavy_mech]

The question remains who did the modifications. My wishful thinking theory, in 1934 and 35 when only Mauser and Sauer were making K98ks, some government/military organization was put to work modifying long rifles. But I have nothing to support this theory.

To be honest this was my first thought, especially after seeing a 2nd one similarly modified. I don't have any proof of course but it sure seems likely.

 

[Absolut]

@runner your rifle has a rear sight base that is closed on bottom whereas the rifle of @Ricedrizzle has an open bottom.

Actually it would be interesting to know whether there were also Army conversions of Gew98 length rifles to K98k length. The SS conversions usually included saddle type front sight bases, also these two rifles shown lack commercial proof as well as DH stamps on the barrel shank.

I'd be tempted to attribute this to a possible Yugoslavian Gew98 to K98k conversion, since I know they also had Gew98 length rifles, as well as outcarrying conversions.

 

[runner]

@runner your rifle has a rear sight base that is closed on bottom whereas the rifle of @Ricedrizzle has an open bottom.

Actually it would be interesting to know whether there were also Army conversions of Gew98 length rifles to K98k length. The SS conversions usually included saddle type front sight bases, also these two rifles shown lack commercial proof as well as DH stamps on the barrel shank.

I'd be tempted to attribute this to a possible Yugoslavian Gew98 to K98k conversion, since I know they also had Gew98 length rifles, as well as outcarrying conversions.

Would Yugo utilized long rifles have the Russian X?

 

[Ricedrizzle]

I took apart the rifle again and confirmed that there are no import marks anywhere. Rear sight base number matches receiver and barrel.

Further, I found that the stock is a duffle cut stock. Not sure if this adds anything—it’s possible that the stock was just added on later state-side. I’m not sure how many duffle-cut stocks were just laying around and/or separated from their original barreled receiver though.

 

[heavy_mech]

I took apart the rifle again and confirmed that there are no import marks anywhere. Rear sight assembly number matches receiver and barrel.

Further, I found that the stock is a duffle cut stock. Not sure if this adds anything—it’s possible that the stock was just added on later state-side. I’m not sure how many duffle-cut stocks were just laying around and/or separated from their original barreled receiver though.

I agree about the stock being married to the rifle stateside. I think it's fairly obvious an RC would not show up with a duffle cut stock.

 

[Ricedrizzle]

I have found another example of a very similar rifle over at gunboards: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/picked-up-a-wwi-gewehr-98-converted-to-a-k98.227191/
It appears that this rifle, like mine and @runner's, also has a Gew98 front sight attached. This rifle also has a very similar "step" in the barrel in front of the front barrel band.

 

[Absolut]

I have found another example of a very similar rifle over at gunboards: https://www.gunboards.com/threads/picked-up-a-wwi-gewehr-98-converted-to-a-k98.227191/

The triangle on the receiver makes me think this might have a Polish connection?

 

[Ricedrizzle]

The triangle on the receiver makes me think this might have a Polish connection?

I wonder if that explains the Polish bolt release.

 

[Ricedrizzle]

I have found several other rifles in either the same or very similar configurations. All of the below examples I have found online share the weird "step" in the barrel in front of the front barrel band and/or has the old Gew.98 style front sight. I considered making a brand new thread, but decided against it for now as I'd rather this post be available for future collectors who encounter similar oddities:

V.Chr.Schilling Suhl 1917 Gew.98 to K98k Conversion

Ive been MIA for awhile but I picked this up a few months ago and wanted to share it. Its a 1917 V.Chr.Schilling Suhl Gew.98 that has been converted to K98k configuration. The original barrel was kept and shortened. The stock is an armorers replacement and is 'C' marked on the heel and E/18...

www.k98kforum.com

https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/gew-98-to-k98-conversion-rifle-question.25208/

Interesting Gew98m shortened to a K98

Hello all, First post here, but I'm seeking information on a rather interesting rifle I picked up for $350. It is a 1915 dated DWM Gewehr 98, marked with the 1920 permission stamp and a triangle above the 1920 (I have no idea what the triangle means, any help along those lines would be...

www.k98kforum.com

Including runner's k98k, I've found four other k98k's so far in a similar configuration to mine. Origin is unclear so far except for a possible Polish connection as Absolut stated above. Any more input is welcome!

 

[Stan]

I have found several other rifles in either the same or very similar configurations. All of the below examples I have found online share the weird "step" in the barrel in front of the front barrel band and/or has the old Gew.98 style front sight. I considered making a brand new thread, but decided against it for now as I'd rather this post be available for future collectors who encounter similar oddities:

V.Chr.Schilling Suhl 1917 Gew.98 to K98k Conversion

Ive been MIA for awhile but I picked this up a few months ago and wanted to share it. Its a 1917 V.Chr.Schilling Suhl Gew.98 that has been converted to K98k configuration. The original barrel was kept and shortened. The stock is an armorers replacement and is 'C' marked on the heel and E/18...

www.k98kforum.com

https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/gew-98-to-k98-conversion-rifle-question.25208/

Interesting Gew98m shortened to a K98

Hello all, First post here, but I'm seeking information on a rather interesting rifle I picked up for $350. It is a 1915 dated DWM Gewehr 98, marked with the 1920 permission stamp and a triangle above the 1920 (I have no idea what the triangle means, any help along those lines would be...

www.k98kforum.com

Including runner's k98k, I've found four other k98k's so far in a similar configuration to mine. Origin is unclear so far except for a possible Polish connection as Absolut stated above. Any more input is welcome!

Interesting. I think I recall a similar conversion shown in the old "Backbone" book, unable to check that right away. The first link you show (1917 V.C. Shilling) is a little different in that the front sight is a K98k style, rather than re-using the Gew 98 type base. The K98k base offered a simpler installation as it didn't require additional turning down of the barrel at the muzzle. That is what one would expect on a German conversion, and has been seen before other than the one in the link. The question still remains on "who" did the work.

 

[heavy_mech]

I agree with Stan that the use of the K98k style FSB puts that one in a different category. at least for this discussion. The fact that you have discovered others in this same EXACT state of conversion is building a statistical base that these were done by 'an entity', rather than Bubba stateside, at least IMHO. More examples would obviously add further to this theory although not necessarily get any closer to the 'who' did the work.

 

[Ricedrizzle]

Interesting. I think I recall a similar conversion shown in the old "Backbone" book, unable to check that right away. The first link you show (1917 V.C. Shilling) is a little different in that the front sight is a K98k style, rather than re-using the Gew 98 type base. The K98k base offered a simpler installation as it didn't require additional turning down of the barrel at the muzzle. That is what one would expect on a German conversion, and has been seen before other than the one in the link. The question still remains on "who" did the work.

I noted the V.C. Shilling one because it has the same “step” in barrel that others initially pointed out as an anomaly. Otherwise yes I agree.

 

[Ricedrizzle]

I’ve

I agree with Stan that the use of the K98k style FSB puts that one in a different category. at least for this discussion. The fact that you have discovered others in this same EXACT state of conversion is building a statistical base that these were done by 'an entity', rather than Bubba stateside, at least IMHO. More examples would obviously add further to this theory although not necessarily get any closer to the 'who' did the work.

I’ve found another example here: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/interesting-polish-rework-gewehr-98-to-k98k.50465/

Exact same set-up, and the second example of possible polish work.

 

[Stan]

The abrupt step to the final dimension does seem to be a common trait. One of the other Gew. 98-K98k conversions I had saved some images of had a more typical tapered step, like a normal K98k barrel. I will have to try resizing them to post here as it says too large a file to process.