It started again

[Absolut]

.. the dicussion on Lugerforums started again, not surpringly with the same outcome as earlier: it must be WWI flamethrower!

Some new thoughts were in as well .. such as the Lazy S DH on rifles is a stamp which is a leftover stamp from WWI period. Well. Why are there then now WWI Gew98 rifles known with DH stamps? And how could this work with a 1940 made barrel?

Anyway, go read yourself here, and participate too: https://www.lugerforums.com/threads/the-lazy-s-death-head-an-opinion-by-klaus-p-schad.131418/

 

[mauser202]

It’s amazing how dug in some of those guys in their opinions and are and unable/unwilling to follow Ryan’s logic.

 

[nirvana]

People actually believe that flamethrower story? People don’t see any connection between rifle and pistol markings?

Love the 60 odd pages of nonsense article being posted as evidence. I thought everyone knew that veteran testimony is basically the least reliable source of data ever, especially when those veterans are 80+ years old. Christ.

 

[Herk1994]

And to absolutely no one's surprise a mod closed the thread to further reply. Keep up the good fight Ryan.

 

[PizzaBert]

And to absolutely no one's surprise a mod closed the thread to further reply. Keep up the good fight Ryan.

I was tempted to say something similar about concrete documentation for E/L,C or even E/655,135 as Ryan had (I didn’t want to Vlim to close the thread haha).

The interpretation of police proofs or any other marking in the absence of written evidence is inference based on observed patterns. E/L,C markings are observed on lugers exhibiting sear safeties (documented police modification) therefore it is safe to assume the marking has police affiliation. To me, the similarities between the Gew98 reworks and the DH marked P08s are convincing enough to be believed.

To be fair though, police marked pistols are infinitely more common and faked far less frequently than DH reworks. I can certainly understand the hesitation of many to “legitimize” the type. Something as desirable and faked like an SS affiliated piece of equipment should be supported with period documentation. Though in absence of period paper and photography, by what other means are we to base our hypothesis off of besides the logical process used to describe police acceptance marks.

 

[Hambone]

Flamethrower unit logo markings on a Luger? Ku Lugers are for the seaplane service? Neither of these theories is supported by logic or reality.

 

[Philip]

….. Something as desirable and faked like an SS affiliated piece of equipment should be supported with period documentation. Though in absence of period paper and photography, by what other means are we to base our hypothesis off of besides the logical process used to describe police acceptance marks.

I think about same factors apply to authenticating and identifying these DH marked Lugers and rifles as anything else. I sort of understand the reluctance of some to accept these Lugers as SS connected but those who have examined the rifles carefully and particularly over a very long time period realize three things at a minimum:

1. The rifles are original as they have encountered more than a couple directly in the hands vets ….woodwork, untouched whatever collector buzz word one wants to use, many of us have and or know trusted friends who have turned these up from vets and this goes ( for me) for about 50 years. This is good for me but does nothing for anyone else!
2. The rifles are SS. This is because of the nature of the re-work to a more or less specific SS pattern of rifle and multiple specific (read UNIQUE) rework markings some SS specific and maybe most important several ways to date the work and hence the DH added to the part that can be dated…..20 plus years after WWI.
3. The Lugers have items one and two above also apply to them, not found in the frequency or extent (markings and re-work) but nevertheless the same. Therefore the Lugers are also SS. I could write that out in a freshman logic 101 course statement but does it really need it?

SS RZM patten and Bevo collar tabs are well documented in period close up photos. They are fairly poorly documented in period documents to the extent that exact details can be determined about the tabs from just the documents (that’s why sample tabs were sent to makers and not just a written description of what something was to look like! All that said, someone tell me how any period photos or other documents will help you discern a good fake of one of tabs (or a good fake of anything at all) from the real article??? It will not happen. For those dug in this issue a pallet load of period documents on late 1930s SS depot operations will not move the needle for them.

 

[nirvana]

The fact that a large number of DH marked weapons show postwar property markings - indicating continued use after 1918 - should show something to these people. I’m also not aware of any of these documented as coming back from WW1.

Also, if the DH is sole flamethrower unit property marking (I had to suppress a laugh while typing that), it’s the only German unit property mark that I’m aware of that doesn’t show a specific unit or weapon number. Flamethrower guys just forgot that part?

Additionally, just how many flamethrower operators did the Germans have in WW1? There are enough of these pistols floating around that it would appear the survival rate of the guns is astronomically high.

My favorite part of that thread - aside from the “article” that spent way too much time showing off a dude’s sacred autograph collection - is the theory that the same German armorer who stamped all the flamethrower pistols kept his dies and then used them again in the 1930s. You know, he just kept them around like some special sauce to stamp on later as a flourish on his work. JFC.

 

[RyanE]

I knew posting what I did would get the thread locked, but I got a chuckle out of it. It's largely a waste of time arguing about it there anyway since markings on P08s and rifles are apparently completely unrelated. Who knew?

The response to clear evidence the stamps are from the 1930s is to invent a story of some Freikorps armorer keeping his old stamps for 15 years as his "signature". Coincidentally, he ends up in the SS which adopts the Totenkopf as its symbol. How on earth do you address nonsense like that? I honestly don't know how you tell someone in a polite and respectful manner how dumb that is?

It is beyond frustrating.

 

[nirvana]

Pure pure gold. The armorer’s last name might have been “death’s head.”

Surely this isn’t a serious comment. This is a joke, right? For real, it has to be a joke and I’m missing the sarcasm.

 

[Philip]

I coming back around to embracing what I practiced for the first four decades or so that I collected and then foolishly abandoned about 10 years ago. That is it’s generally a waste of time to try to teach anyone anything about this material unless they really want to know and learn and that is guaranteed to be a pretty small percent of all encountered. Right now plenty of people are paying pretty serious money for DH Lugers, both real and fake, but it’s probably a good time to buy real ones that can be vetted and meet all of the known criteria. There will be a time, and probably not to distant, when these will be fully understood and accepted. When this happens they will be 3x-4X what they are now.

 

[JoeW]

I was tempted to say something similar about concrete documentation for E/L,C or even E/655,135 as Ryan had (I didn’t want to Vlim to close the thread haha).

The interpretation of police proofs or any other marking in the absence of written evidence is inference based on observed patterns. E/L,C markings are observed on lugers exhibiting sear safeties (documented police modification) therefore it is safe to assume the marking has police affiliation. To me, the similarities between the Gew98 reworks and the DH marked P08s are convincing enough to be believed.

To be fair though, police marked pistols are infinitely more common and faked far less frequently than DH reworks. I can certainly understand the hesitation of many to “legitimize” the type. Something as desirable and faked like an SS affiliated piece of equipment should be supported with period documentation. Though in absence of period paper and photography, by what other means are we to base our hypothesis off of besides the logical process used to describe police acceptance marks.

In the 1960s, the Mauser factory provided Whittington with a written letter confirming that the application of E/L,C,F,K acceptance stamps to their pistols indicated use by the Third Reich police organization. He mentioned this in his first volume, before information about the Prussian police order adding sear safeties to P08s was known to collectors. While not period documentation, it is just as good IMO.

 

[PizzaBert]

In the 1960s, the Mauser factory provided Whittington with a written letter confirming that the application of E/L,C,F,K acceptance stamps to their pistols indicated use by the Third Reich police organization. He mentioned this in his first volume, before information about the Prussian police order adding sear safeties to P08s was known to collectors. While not period documentation, it is just as good IMO.

I didn’t know such a letter existed. Thanks for the knowledge.

 

[Herk1994]

I knew posting what I did would get the thread locked, but I got a chuckle out of it. It's largely a waste of time arguing about it there anyway since markings on P08s and rifles are apparently completely unrelated. Who knew?

The response to clear evidence the stamps are from the 1930s is to invent a story of some Freikorps armorer keeping his old stamps for 15 years as his "signature". Coincidentally, he ends up in the SS which adopts the Totenkopf as its symbol. How on earth do you address nonsense like that? I honestly don't know how you tell someone in a polite and respectful manner how dumb that is?

It is beyond frustrating.

Well Ryan, your time is certainly appreciated here. You can't win them all. I swear, you could tell these people that they need water to survive, and they'd dispute it....

 

[nirvana]

Well Ryan, your time is certainly appreciated here. You can't win them all. I swear, you could tell these people that they need water to survive, and they'd dispute it....

I noticed that some of the complaints were coming from those with book publishing credits. I suspect that - for some - it’s easier to deny information than it is to admit that you and/or your book might be wrong.

 

[Herk1994]

I noticed that some of the complaints were coming from those with book publishing credits. I suspect that - for some - it’s easier to deny information than it is to admit that you and/or your book might be wrong.

In my opinion, true experts are those who admit their mistakes as they are made aware of them. Then they can make amendments to their published books to correct any wrongs. If they choose to remain oblivious then they care not for the hobby, but only their position.

 

[RyanE]

In the 1960s, the Mauser factory provided Whittington with a written letter confirming that the application of E/L,C,F,K acceptance stamps to their pistols indicated use by the Third Reich police organization. He mentioned this in his first volume, before information about the Prussian police order adding sear safeties to P08s was known to collectors. While not period documentation, it is just as good IMO.

That's not "proof" by their standards.

I don't have the book, so I could be mistaken, but I thought it was a letter from a former employee (Weiss maybe)? If the Mauser archives had any documentation on the Orpo markings I think we would have heard about it.

 

[JoeW]

it was the first book I bought when I started collecting TR police weapons. The letter was factory letterhead stationary. Whittington shared a copy with me a few years later. The Mauser archives would only indicate police contract as they had no involvement with acceptance.

 

[Mike2994]

That conversation is an amazing study on denialism…

Ryan is trying to present information and essentially gets a “but wadda bout the flamethrowers & fryKorps” response each and every time.

 

[Philip]

To be fair there are and have been plenty of Luger collectors who have recognized these as SS re-work Lugers for 50-70 years. I believe Fred Datig discussed this as a least a school of thought among many collectors in his book published in 1959 or so or at least in his 1962 revised edition. I know that Kenyon photographed and captioned these as Deathshead reworks in his 1969 Lugers at Random and both authors also mentioned the crown N proofing. Many other references and dealers listings continued to refer to these as SS deathhead re-works all through the 70s and beyond, maybe they did it for the wrong reasons but nevertheless many collectors, probably most, believed the SS attribution. The connection to the flamethrower units and the Freikorps is a more recent “phenomenon” that was started in some gun magazine articles and then offered along with several other theories in Still’s Weimar Lugers, all 30-40 years ago. I’m a believer in context and knowing the lineage of things and ideas. It’s like the old saying about politicians and whores becoming respected if they live long enough. When one sees how many things started out and then become legend 40-50 years later it’s very funny. Oh before it was flamethrower units they were deathhead Hussar Lugers.