Interesting Spandau 1918, I need your advice...

[bolas]

Hi there,

I'm looking for some advice. I recently came across a beautiful G98 and I'm considering buying it. Initially, I thought it hadn't been touched since WW1 and was preserved in its original condition. Unfortunately, I can't understand a couple of the stamps and details, which is confusing me. Could you help me clear up my doubts? The first thing I noticed is the "WiS" stamp on the right side of the receiver. I've never seen anything like this before. Is it German pre-1918 or something else? On the top of the receiver, right above the manufacturer, there's also an "H" stamp. A similar "H" is stamped on the buttplate as well. Is this the later WW2 German "H" sign for "Heer"? Lastly, the belt is slightly different. It's not the standard one, although it has a classic buckle and hook. I would love to hear your opinion on this rifle, if possible. What do you think of the overall condition? Is there anything else I should notice? Are there any other details that indicate it might not be from WW1?

Thanks in advance and have a great weekend

 

[chrisftk]

It's a Hannover assembled Gew 98. It looks matching; it's extremely rare and valuable.

These were assembled at the Hannover Depot in 17-18.. They were a supplemental production operation. Receivers started to be blued in 1918 for some manufacturers

The fact that it's a 1918 makes it even more special. Matching 17 Hannovers are rare enough. Here's my 1917 for comparison.

The WIS is likely just the vets initials that brought it back: I don't believe that denotes any official stamping.

1917 Hannover "H" Spandau "a" block, matching

Hi all, I owe my friend Don (aka; SirPeanut) big for scoping out this one. This was a scarce one that was significantly undervalued and flew under the radar. It's not often you find Hannover builds with a matching bolt, so this was a neat one to see. The hallmarks of Hannover are all here: The...

www.k98kforum.com

 

[mauser1908]

This gun is a time capsule; like Chris said, it’s exceptionally rare. There are only a handful of 1918 Hannover builds reported, I would venture most are 98m.

1918 production was very low for almost all makers. H was probably one of the lowest, maybe 30-40k in total. It will be hard to ever determine that as they serialized consecutively, many blocks are missing but the Germans did often omit letters for seemingly no reason.

1918 is a large focus of mine; this is one of the best 1918 dated guns I’ve seen in general. It’s BY FAR the best 1918 ‘H’ Spandau I’ve seen.

 

[bolas]

Wow, I'm impressed! Thank you so much for sharing that. I'll try my best to get it...

 

[PrayingMantis]

This is a real gem, i would not hesitate to get it if i were you. If you don't mind, i'm going to add it to the reference already, seldom does anyone get to see a 1918 Hannover.

The WiS is interesting, it looks very deliberate, but such a small and unobstructive stamp isn't going to affect value on such rare piece.

 

[bolas]

What are your thoughts on the sling, guys? It's more or less similar to the standard G98 one, but a couple of details are different. Could it be a rework? I've never seen such a variant among the standard German slings.

 

[joryfreeburg]

That’s really cool rifle. Let us know if you end up with it. Thats a real find

 

[PrayingMantis]

What are your thoughts on the sling, guys? It's more or less similar to the standard G98 one, but a couple of details are different. Could it be a rework? I've never seen such a variant among the standard German slings.

I believe that is an export variant. I've seen them occasionally, had one come on a Gew, but from what i've heard from people who know export models better they were never used by the German army. If the seller is factoring that heavily into the price, it would not be worth the same as a German used sling.

 

[biggymu]

Even if it weren’t a rare rifle, condition wise, it’s just the way you want to find them. Still has the sanding marks on the keel from when it was made and a tiny N/S on the floor plate. Very cool. Good luck!

 

[bolas]

It's a Hannover assembled Gew 98. It looks matching; it's extremely rare and valuable.

These were assembled at the Hannover Depot in 17-18.. They were a supplemental production operation. Receivers started to be blued in 1918 for some manufacturers

The fact that it's a 1918 makes it even more special. Matching 17 Hannovers are rare enough. Here's my 1917 for comparison.

The WIS is likely just the vets initials that brought it back: I don't believe that denotes any official stamping.

1917 Hannover "H" Spandau "a" block, matching

Hi all, I owe my friend Don (aka; SirPeanut) big for scoping out this one. This was a scarce one that was significantly undervalued and flew under the radar. It's not often you find Hannover builds with a matching bolt, so this was a neat one to see. The hallmarks of Hannover are all here: The...

www.k98kforum.com

When it comes to the "WiS" stamp, the location where it was found suggests it is unlikely to be a bring-back scenario. Could you tell me a bit more about the Hannover assembly? What makes it so special? I'll need to check Dieter Storz's book on this. I went through it briefly today but didn't spot anything on these "H" signatures.

Even if it weren’t a rare rifle, condition wise, it’s just the way you want to find them. Still has the sanding marks on the keel from when it was made and a tiny N/S on the floor plate. Very cool. Good luck!

So true. To be honest, that's how I got interested in this particular one. I had no idea about the Hannover part. I just love finding these pieces, as if they got teleported to our times.

 

[chrisftk]

When it comes to the "WiS" stamp, the location where it was found suggests it is unlikely to be a bring-back scenario.

Then possibly a prior owner or a museum that added it. It appears to not be any sort of "official" marking I know of.

Could you tell me a bit more about the Hannover assembly? What makes it so special? I'll need to check Dieter Storz's book on this. I went through it briefly today but didn't spot anything on these "H" signatures.

Unfortunately you won't find anything in Storz about these. This was something that was pieced together through collector observation. Hannover essentially took salvaged and ordnance spare/"Armorer's" parts and assembled rifles with them. For all intents and purposes they are essentially a sterngewehr without the star. These were simply an alternative channel for rifle production in addition to the more traditional makers. The H denotes Hannover. The link I posted above will have some more information. I also have a matching Hanover built entirely from a salvaged 1906 WMO receiver.

They made a fair number of them, but for whatever reason they have a very low survival rate in original condition. Some are a bolt mismatch at best, there are a few matchers floating around, but even matching ones often have mismatched small parts because if they were using salvaged parts, they really weren't particular about ensuring everything was renumbered.

What makes this particular example so appealing is that it is a matching Hannover and a 1918 date. In the aftermath of World War I, the Entente placed destruction requirements on German weapons. Many of the 1918 rifles, fresh from their point of origin, were low-hanging fruit for destruction. Any matching 1918 in imperial trim is a treasure and are sought after by collectors. Many of the 18s that were not destroyed and remained in German hands were later converted into Gew 98M.

 

[hale1940]

Bolas, other members here will tell you more technically interesting info on the rifle. But I want to say that I really hope you get it. That's really an incredible example of a late Gewehr 98.

 

[bolas]

Thanks for your support. I will definitely try to buy it. You know how it is—wanting something doesn't guarantee you'll get it. I'm not the only one who noticed it, but I'm working on it. We'll see. Hopefully, I'll get lucky in a couple of weeks.

 

[bolas]

I believe that is an export variant. I've seen them occasionally, had one come on a Gew, but from what i've heard from people who know export models better they were never used by the German army. If the seller is factoring that heavily into the price, it would not be worth the same as a German used sling.

Thanks for the information. So, I assume the sling needs to be replaced with the proper G98 German sling, right? I wonder if there's any chance that in 1918 they could have used an export sling as "ersatz". Probably zero chances of that...I guess someone just added this in modern times.

 

[biggymu]

IMHO it looks like they have been together for a long time. I wouldn’t change it.

 

[PrayingMantis]

I really wouldn't worry about the sling. If you did ever find one with a German maker and date you could swap them, but really it's such a nice and rare piece the sling is inconsequential.

 

[bolas]

Good news, I was lucky and finally bought it. Now all the paperwork needs to be completed, and hopefully, in a couple of weeks/months, the import will be finished. I will definitely get back to you guys with more pictures once the rifle arrives. This particular rifle survived in Germany in Hesse, close to the city of Frankfurt. Meanwhile, I was trying to learn more about Hannover builds ("H"). I went through a couple of topics here, but it’s still not clear to me. Could you elaborate a bit more on this?

 

[PrayingMantis]

Good news, I was lucky and finally bought it. Now all the paperwork needs to be completed, and hopefully, in a couple of weeks/months, the import will be finished. I will definitely get back to you guys with more pictures once the rifle arrives. This particular rifle survived in Germany in Hesse, close to the city of Frankfurt. Meanwhile, I was trying to learn more about Hannover builds ("H"). I went through a couple of topics here, but it’s still not clear to me. Could you elaborate a bit more on this?

You probably won't find much on them anywhere but here. Chris gave a pretty good rundown in post #11, and there's some good discussion here: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/1917-h-spandau.47098/
But i'll add what i can.
The Hanover Depot seems to have picked up weapon assembly in 1916 or 1917 by making complete rifles from salvaged parts. A number of people here have examples of Hanover rebuilds with matching bolts based on early receivers. Usually these are receivers with new barrels placed in armorer's stocks with renumbered bolts and buttplates. Small parts were not renumbered. Receivers and buttplates are stamped with H. Here's the example i have: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/gewehr-98-danzig-1908-4832-hannover-rework.43529/ These are not considered new production, mainly because they use the original serial number. Later, Hanover began using their own serial numbers, and that is what we consider new production, though they still used salvaged part.
In 1917, judging by the 1917 dated receivers, Hanover began assembling full rifles (never carbines) from subcontracted receivers meant for Spandau and armorers parts. There appears to have been a connection to Spandau based on fireproofs and acceptance, the speculation if that when Spandau dropped rifle production in 1917, the primary rifle inspector went to Hanover to oversee rifle assembly there. These examples still show salvaged parts, usually small parts like rear sight sliders and tab, but occasionally even stocks as on this weapon: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/h-spandau-1917-c-block.59264/ Most used new armorers stocks, these will have a c/B wrist acceptance but no cypher or side acceptance. Assembly continued into 1918, as your example illustrates, when more subcontracted parts show up, including barrels.
There has not yet been a good comparison study of these by serial number, like with Dresdens, though now we are lucky to have quite a few stellar examples posted here in detail.

 

[bolas]

Are we interested in seeing more of these "H" rifles? A couple of days ago, I found another one in a Facebook group, but it's in much worse condition. It was manufactured in Spandau in 1917, reworked by Mauser Werke in 1935 (S/42G), and sometime after the war, it was painted black and sporterized (sadly, the front of the stock was cut off). I have no idea if this might be interesting for your research. I can copy and paste images here or somewhere else if you're interested.

 

[bolas]

The eagle has landed... it has finally arrived. I picked it up today, and it looks even better live than it did in the auction photos. I'll definitely do a more detailed session soon, just wanted to share my happiness!