Imperial Navy Marked Kar 98as

[cj556]

Out of curiosity has anyone seen a Kaiserliche Marine marked Kar 98a? I know the Weimar navy had some and they too are rare but I’ve never seen pictures of an Imperial navy example just Imperial Navy Gew 98s and 71-84s. Jordan in his Navy data thread makes mention of a 1913 Erfurt that’s OMD marked, I’m curious if there are photos of this example anywhere? Also if anyone has seen one are they marked with a Prussian eagle or a navy crown?

 

[chrisftk]

My knowledge of them is about the same as what you posted. Assumed to be quite rare, but barring some grave error in unit mark interpretation, they appear to exist. I'm curious to hear what others have seen.

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[Loewe]

1908 Erfurt 4200 O.III.24

This is not a field I excel in... but a couple reports to draw fire from those that know this subject better... I do not think either are actual KM or KS related rifles.

1908 Erfurt 4200 O.III.24

In 2011 this rifle popped up on eGun, it was discussed by me, CB, ScottB and possibly PeterS, we and sometimes a few others would exchange group emails on interesting rifles or related subjects. CB shot down the association of any Colonial forces meaning, but Scott suggested the remote possibility of embassy security or possibly some overseas role.

"Oberkommando d. III. Armee, Waffe 24 per Wacker & Götz.

The East Asia folks were out of business ca. 1903.
-CB"

 

[Loewe]

1913 Erfurt ser. 2133 a O.M.D. 39 JN

Jeff Noll report in his book, page 116. Attributed to East Asia by Jeff, he might have changed his view since, but I will leave it to others to agree or disagree. On page 115 he lists a short K98 with East Asian FA, Erfurt/00 933, O.F.A1.21. Not really related, but in general I have no other related observations that really have a claim on such a possibility.

I kind of doubt 98a were used extensively in such roles. Perhaps a few did exist, but the Japanese of Australians would have taken them during WWI and survival would have been extremely low and existence today in any collectible condition is unlikely. I would think South Africans and Australians back then would have but them to work, back then they were rugged lot and probably weren't great sedentary collectors! (though Americans weren't pussies back then either... and lots of G98 and 98a survived, who can say.. - except all three countries are full of pussies and it is a miracle any of these rifles have escape Gestapo buy-back drives)

 

[Warrior1354]

From my personal collection the only picture I own showing Imperial Marines training with 71/84 rifles and a soldier armed with a kar98a carbine. I need to locate the date on the photo.

But I have feeling the Navy had a small contract for carbines. Of course around this time carbines were not as much in demand as rifles. That changed around 1917. When the lessons learned from years of war and tactics were evolving.

 

[Spartaner545]

Very interesting topic!

The only pre-war official use of K98 within the imperial navy i know of are the machinegun crews of the III. Seebataillon. They were also the only navy guys equipped with the short bayonet 98.
The soldiers from the III. Seebataillon always seem to have done things a bit diffrent then the rest...

Looking at surviving data regarding K98's during the war for the navy, there is some information left from the Kiel dockyard. There are lists with incoming rifles and carbines from the diffrent manufacturers. From 07/15 until 09/18 there are 1,700 K98 recorded, mostly Erfurt ones. In 02/17 and 03/17 there are two 40 carbine shipments from Spandau as well.

By the way, within the same time period there are 16,959 G98s so the carbines make roughly 10% of the new produced weapons for the dockyard Kiel.

With kind regards

Vincent

Source: Reckendorf, H. 1983 "Die Handwaffen der Koeniglich Preussischen und der Kaiserlichen Marine"; Selbstverlag des Autors, Dortmund-Schönau

 

[Spartaner545]

Jordan in his Navy data thread makes mention of a 1913 Erfurt that’s OMD marked

The only thing i can add here is that there are some kS98 bayonets known with O.M.D. markings. One of them even feature an additional M.G.A. (could be "Machine Gun Abteilung") marking as well. From 1908 onwards machine gun crews tend to have been equipped with the kS98 and the K98.

So its very likley that the "Ostasiatisches Marine Detachment" (OMD) had K98s as well. It was raised in 1909, stationed in china and served until the war in 1914. They were highly associated with the III. SB, which is probably why they got their hands on some kS98 bayonets and K98 carbines for their machinegun units too.

 

[Amberg]

From my personal collection the only picture I own showing Imperial Marines training with 71/84 rifles and a soldier armed with a kar98a carbine. I need to locate the date on the photo.

Can you make out what is on the cap tallies? Is it: "2. Matrosen Artillerie Regiment" ?
Thanks

 

[cj556]

The only thing i can add here is that there are some kS98 bayonets known with O.M.D. markings. One of them even feature an additional M.G.A. (could be "Machine Gun Abteilung") marking as well. From 1908 onwards machine gun crews tend to have been equipped with the kS98 and the K98.

So its very likley that the "Ostasiatisches Marine Detachment" (OMD) had K98s as well. It was raised in 1909, stationed in china and served until the war in 1914. They were highly associated with the III. SB, which is probably why they got their hands on some kS98 bayonets and K98 carbines for their machinegun units too.

A good friend has another OMD marked 98a (Same year 1913 Erfurt) this is what spurred me to this thread. I couldn’t find much on any KM marked 98as on the internet.

 

[Warrior1354]

Can you make out what is on the cap tallies? Is it: "2. Matrosen Artillerie Regiment" ?
Thanks

I will double check may try to rescan the picture too for some better close ups.

 

[Amberg]

I will double check may try to rescan the picture too for some better close ups.

Thanks.
I found two very nice photos showing Navy soldiers with K98 in forums over here.
One from I. Seeflieger-Abteilung, the other one from 2. Matrosen Artillerie-Regiment. Both photos are dated 1917.

A fellow collector told me that the Navy units on the Western front had about 5,000 K98. Including naval airship and air force units.

4,016 K98 with infantry and artillery units (unknown date)
107 K98 with the Marine-Luftschiff-Detachement and I. Marine-Fliegerabteilung (October 1915)
810 K98 with B.M.A. Liebau und I. Seefliegerabteilung (October 1915)

If I can find out more, I'll let you know.

 

[Loewe]

Marinepionierkompagnie 04/28/1916

I was under the impression we were seeking rifles, not evidence in pictures... however here is a wartime example of KM use.

Marinepionierkompagnie 04/28/1916

 

[MichaelWC]

The markings "O.M.D.1 124" show this bayonet to have been issued to the 1st Company of the East Asian Marine Detachment ("Ostasiatische Marine Detachment") based at Peking and Tientsin, weapon number 124. This bayonet was made by Simson & Co in Suhl and has no date marking though it was probably made around 1900-01. The one piece wooden grip on this S98aA was discarded in favour of the two piece grips of the S98nA in 1902. As the bayonet has no signs of previous issue markings it may well have been kept in storage for sometime before being issued: the East Asian Marine Detachment was only formed in 1909. This bayonet has a leather scabbard.

My Source-http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk

 

[Amberg]

The markings "O.M.D.1 124"

Did you notice the "7" overstamped with the "4" and the additional dot at the end?
As far as I know, the Germans did not grind off old markings, but rather lined or Xed them out.
I don't like what I see.

 

[feldmütze]

Here is my friends 1913 Erfurt. Unfortunately I have no pics of the acceptance but I’m told it’s an Eagle vs the crown you see on Naval Gew 98s.

Wow, that's a nice one!

 

[Warrior1354]

Wow that is a nice one and very interesting too. I'm curious if the muzzle lid is also unit marked for the Navy as well. From what I'm gathering the Kar98a Navy Contracts had to be very small.

 

[Amberg]

almost speechless!

 

[chrisftk]

^ what they said. Hope you can talk him out of it one day!

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[cj556]

Wow that is a nice one and very interesting too. I'm curious if the muzzle lid is also unit marked for the Navy as well. From what I'm gathering the Kar98a Navy Contracts had to be very small.

Unfortunately the muzzle lid isn’t navy marked

 

[Amberg]

Is there anything known, where/when it was captured?
Thanks