Third Party Press

How dishonest is the K98 market and the risk to the average Joe collector

I don't like the sounds of that!

I hear you. Imagine if you will you paid 3k for a legit rifle and found out it was really worth 800-1000. Or 6k for a rifle and then had to sell it for 1635?? That's what he's talking about. Does it happen?? Absolutely. Is it a rare occurrence? Sure is. Remember what I said about diving in the deep end without a lifeguard present? Most of these cases that's exactly what they did. Caveat emptor. Look here. Especially posted rifles, not private sales and you'll be fine. Not every member is fully vetted, especially 'lurkers' with few posts. Easy to verify/vet and if it seems too good to be true it probably is. Despite all the fellows best efforts a few shitbags have slipped in under the fence.
 
I hear you. Imagine if you will you paid 3k for a legit rifle and found out it was really worth 800-1000. Or 6k for a rifle and then had to sell it for 1635?? That's what he's talking about. Does it happen?? Absolutely. Is it a rare occurrence? Sure is. Remember what I said about diving in the deep end without a lifeguard present? Most of these cases that's exactly what they did. Caveat emptor. Look here. Especially posted rifles, not private sales and you'll be fine. Not every member is fully vetted, especially 'lurkers' with few posts. Easy to verify/vet and if it seems too good to be true it probably is. Despite all the fellows best efforts a few shitbags have slipped in under the fence.

All of this. If we find a shitbag who snuck under the fence they get 86'd. We can usually spot them and they get the boot or privilege limited before they can even do it. We don't care about membership numbers and clicks, thus we don't want such people here. Some of that is for selfish reasons because I and the other mods are the first who get pulled into it to clean up on aisle 10.
 
Also being new to K98s and having been exactly where you are now a short time ago, would offer the following:

K98s are a very different business from the other guns that have drawn my interest over time. My start was in ARs and modern firearms. There is a challenge here, but one that is relatively easily overcome, identify the most reliable makers (definitely some argument here), but Daniel Defense, BCM, LMT, Larue etc, are at the top of the game. Lesser manufacturers are easily identified.

Next is the ability to build your own gun, which is also not hard. In doing so you have entered the realm of the frankengun and understand how to spot someone else’s handiwork. AKs and SKSs are not that especially challenging either in my mind. I appreciate these guns and there effectiveness, but sought something more.

What motivated my interest in historical arms was an appreciation and interest in history that aligned itself well with my appreciation for firearms. Those which were present for pivotal events in history especially drew my attention. Exploring all of the options showed firearms which were produced in bulk but lacked fine craftsmanship. The K98 (especially early war) seemed to run contrary to this otherwise dreary world of mass production.

What followed was gaining knowledge of the rifles, this forum was key to that venture. Having just wanted a firearm to shoot at first, it metamorphized into an interest in the elements that characterized these weapons and worthy of attention. Out of the that, the desire to be challenged.

Even then there is a great battle between expedient acquisition and considered collecting that must be fought. Will must be tempered with knowledge and this is where careful consideration, collaboration and study need to occur. Struggles through doubt, significant amounts of money needed to acquire a good example and people that seek to trick you will beset your path.

You can avoid these challenges by purchasing from a reputable person on this site and know that you have your example and be done. Should you choose to move further down the path of exploration you will probably find these things to be true:

1. You will recognize Russian Captures
2. You will recognize Mitchells Mausers (both of these are like empty Twinkies, they have the shape, but no filling) bastardizations of what once was
3. You will recognize a bolt mismatch
4. You will recognize parts mismatches
5. You will be challenged to recognize humped rifles
a. Wood that has been assaulted (sanding, cleaning)
b. Fake numbers (stamps are available and SOBs on GB and other sites use them daily)
6. You will start to see what a correct rifle should be by exception

Out of the 100’s of K98s on sites and for sale only a handful at a time are correct. Of those many will ask far more than they are worth and a few will not know what they have.
Recognition can be best aided by buying the Karabiner 98 volumes, focusing hard on the commentary on this site and finding mentors. Collaboration is essential and the folks who comprise this site are the most honest and knowledgable on the planet. The friendships made here make the challenges and pitfalls less likely and at the end of the day are worth more to me than the rifles or the history. It is a long path, there are no shortcuts, but it is worth the journey. At the end of the day, when you have a correct example or hopefully examples, you are a steward of history, and that is worth everything. You can be let down in this game, but time effort and dedication will save you from the majority of the most frequently made mistakes.

No matter what you decide, welcome!!
 
Out of the 100’s of K98s on sites and for sale only a handful at a time are correct. Of those many will ask far more than they are worth and a few will not know what they have.

All well said but this may be the truest of all. 'The sites' are fraught with fakes, hyperbole and flat out falsehoods. Some of which is easily discerned, even by a novice. Many others not so much. Relax, hang tight and you'll be fine.
 
I know the forum does not permit members soliciting input on live gun auctions but what's the rule on auctions that have sold? There are a few recent auctions that I'm curious as to what the consensus is on the rifles that sold.

I recall seeing a "forum rules" page at one point but can't seem to find it. If that question is addressed there, if someone could point me to where I can find it I'd appreciate it.
 
I know the forum does not permit members soliciting input on live gun auctions but what's the rule on auctions that have sold? There are a few recent auctions that I'm curious as to what the consensus is on the rifles that sold.

I recall seeing a "forum rules" page at one point but can't seem to find it. If that question is addressed there, if someone could point me to where I can find it I'd appreciate it.

Once an auction has 'ended' rip away. We routinely dissect auctions post mortem, sold or not. Its a fertile learning ground and helps all of the community to understand what's going on in the market, fake or otherwise. Sometimes it's just a 'sale price' we'll debate. Have at it.

At least that's how I think I understand the rules??
 
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Ok, here is one I'd love you guys to postmortem.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/853759487

Full disclosure... I thought this rifle looked honest. I did not buy it though.

Picture 10 of the barrel ban caught my eye as a bit suspicious, thought it *might* have been grinded on a bit. And how about the price?

So had I bought this rifle, would I have been taking a one way trip on the Lolita Express?
 
Stock definitely sanded/shellacked. You can see the one photo of the cross bolt is scratched to hell in a cross hatch and nearly flush with the lumber. A couple of the wood stamps look a bit off but not extremely so they might all be legit. Other than that it seems good to go at just a quick swipe through the photos. Also as with the sanding a lot of what should be sharp edges are really rounded over. Might think it's 'carry wear' except for the obvious sanding on that cross bolt. Not such a deal at that price, at least IMHO.

I meant to add action/lock screws also buggered.
 
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Stock definitely sanded/shellacked. You can see the one photo of the cross bolt is scratched to hell in a cross hatch and nearly flush with the lumber. A couple of the wood stamps look a bit off but not extremely so they might all be legit. Other than that it seems good to go at just a quick swipe through the photos. Also as with the sanding a lot of what should be sharp edges are really rounded over. Might think it's 'carry wear' except for the obvious sanding on that cross bolt. Not such a deal at that price, at least IMHO.

I meant to add action/lock screws also buggered.

Even though I didn't mention it, I did think the stock looked a little soft around the edges when I first saw it. So when you guys see sanded stocks, is it mostly the case that the entire stock has been sanded and refinished or just spots? This one also looks lighter in color... is that just because it's a walnut variant or is it really abnormally lite or is this ones color not concerning?

What about the metal and the bluing? I thought the metal looked a bit buffed.
 
Just glancing through the photos I didn't really see any issues with the metal but the stock sanding was obvious. If you look through the pic reference you'll many examples of unsanded stocks and just how sharp the cutouts are. It really becomes apparent once you've seen a few. Another thing is the finish. So a raw walnut stock has a certain look. Check some of BiOs because he's posted a few recently. Not saying others don't have fabulous unmolested stock but rather he's posted about this recently when another new member asked the same question.
 
To me, the reality is most 98s that are being sold have an issue. A gun with a stock that has not been messed with, and is matched from the factory (versus bubba or Mitchell or Larry the cable guy) generally requires: 1) A situation that evokes authenticity, like a guys closet who's Dad served in Europe, 2) Having a mentor who can vet stuff or guide you along, 3) buying from a reputable guy who will back up what he sells. One needs to invest the time to learn, and get in front of as many K98s as you can, but this also can be problematic because you don't know what you are seeing... like, "So, is this the original stock finish or not?"
 
To me, the reality is most 98s that are being sold have an issue. A gun with a stock that has not been messed with, and is matched from the factory (versus bubba or Mitchell or Larry the cable guy) generally requires: 1) A situation that evokes authenticity, like a guys closet who's Dad served in Europe, 2) Having a mentor who can vet stuff or guide you along, 3) buying from a reputable guy who will back up what he sells. One needs to invest the time to learn, and get in front of as many K98s as you can, but this also can be problematic because you don't know what you are seeing... like, "So, is this the original stock finish or not?"

Very good points! I will add that the differing levels of originality (bolt mismatch, stock mismatch, perhaps BOTH of those mismatched, or even ALL MATCHING but stock sanded, etc. etc.) give new collectors good entry level guns to be able to get into the hobby at affordable prices. VERY nice guns can be had here on the trader that have one or two issues but are legit and not faked. In fact, some date codes are hard to find in all original condition, so I think many advanced collectors may have examples in their collections that are not perfect but are rare in any condition. As you learn and start collecting don’t be too quick to dismiss an honest rifle at a good price.


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Hello,

I wouldn't just single out the k98, ANY MARKET where ppl want to make money has problems. As with anything you collect study study study!!!!!!! served me well so far.

later
vaughn
 
I hear you. Imagine if you will you paid 3k for a legit rifle and found out it was really worth 800-1000. Or 6k for a rifle and then had to sell it for 1635?? That's what he's talking about. Does it happen?? Absolutely. Is it a rare occurrence? Sure is. Remember what I said about diving in the deep end without a lifeguard present? Most of these cases that's exactly what they did. Caveat emptor. Look here. Especially posted rifles, not private sales and you'll be fine. Not every member is fully vetted, especially 'lurkers' with few posts. Easy to verify/vet and if it seems too good to be true it probably is. Despite all the fellows best efforts a few shitbags have slipped in under the fence.

I don’t feel like I have much to contribute up here so lurking is kinda my thing on this forum. It’s is one of the ways I’m educating myself. I’ve learned a ton (with tons more to go:biggrin1:) by reading the analysis in threads, watching items being sold, reviewing the photo archives and reading the books (which doesn’t count as lurking but which I found by being on this forum). I’m more knowledgeable now and less likely to get screwed in a deal off this forum ( feel like a babe in its mother’s arms when buying from this forum...no one is out to screw the other guy just to turn a buck).

Lurking and learning has helped me define my “collecting”: I’ve decided I like earlier rifles rather than late, Borsigwalde over others (can’t say exactly why), rifles I can shoot as well as covet. I might lurk and have a low post count but don’t let that fool you, I appreciate everything you guys do up here for the hobby and for people like me who start as casual milsurp collectors and get sucked into the vortex of K98k collecting.
 

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