How did I do? My first K98 - JP Sauer 1942

[grimlin13]

Sorry about you getting burned. I hope that you can get your money back. I`ve been burned a couple of times and it does get to you. A few years ago I traded off 2 original Hoffman prints of Hitler for a "Third Reich" pocket knife. I`m in no means an expert on TR pocket knives but, it looked good and the seller had his story of how it came from a vet. I should of known better and a little voice was telling me it was in too good of shape. Got it anyway. Found out two months ago the knife was made in the 70`s. The Hoffman prints were worth $150 apiece back when I made the trade, the knife, maybe $40. Doubt I could get $20 for it. It sits in a box with the "Third Reich" ring I got burned on. It taught me a lesson, research, research, research, stick with what you know and try to get an opinion here before you buy. I only do Third Reich bayonets, medals and awards now.
Grimlin

 

[Stan]

This rifle has been sanded and refinished. The bolt body is fake; the lower barrel band is fake; the bayonet lug is wrong: should be blued in this range; the cleaning rod is reproduction. The sight ladder has been blued and there are likely other reblued parts as well.

The bayonet lug is also the later style without the "dimples" in the side that are found with the H-type upper band style lug.

 

[Robbie]

Ce 42

My CE 42 has the smooth upper band and bayonet lug. One thing has been bugging me though. The script CE isn't slanted, but straight.

 

[Stan]

My CE 42 has the smooth upper band and bayonet lug. One thing has been bugging me though. The script CE isn't slanted, but straight.

I've seen that straight script ce on 1943 Sauers (look in the picture reference section above). Maybe a late 42? Others here can tell you the s/n block range that it starts showing up.

 

[Stephan98k]

I've seen that straight script ce on 1943 Sauers (look in the picture reference section above). Maybe a late 42? Others here can tell you the s/n block range that it starts showing up.

It could be a late ce 42 but not categorical and the majority is with slanted script. Vertical script appear also in earlier production in 1942. In my documented ones I have several examples with vertical script between "g" and "t" block. Even in "b" and "a" block they show up and one example without suffix.

 

[S/42]

I have to push back on this finally. I keep seeing some of you guys saying "not worth $xxx" and add a ridiculously low value. $200.???? Really? Not worth $200? I'll take that bet all day. I don't know what fantasy island you guys live on where YOU all seem to find complete matching bringback rifles for a few hundred dollars??? Please let me know. Not saying they're NEVER out there to be found, but I'm also not lowballing (robbing) some old widow to steal her dead husbands bringback. Sorry if you think I'm being too blunt, but this insane lowball nonsense is just that to me.

Really, honestly... tell me where all these cheap rifles are??? I'm sure there are many other people who would like to know.

edit - I'll add this. I do agree with you he overpaid. I'll also agree there is some (a lot) of badness with the serialized parts.

Let me clarify a bit.

If there was a rifle on a table that ws all mismatched, but yet unmessed with finish and serial wise, yes, I would pay $200 for one happily as a shooter, and have paid more (for GOOD RC's for example).

If I saw this Sauer on the table with not only incorrect parts, but ground and fraudulently reserialled, reblued, sanded, and otherwise generally boinked with, then to me it is not worth even a cent. It's lost ANY "history" it may have had even as a collection of parts as those parts are now vandalised and ruined forever. I have stripped RC K98's for parts that retain their original serials to reassemble the junk ones that have ground down serials. The rifle in question to me is not even worth it as a shooter - best use for it to ME would be deactivated and sold to a reenactor.

To each their own. I can live with legitimate mismatches, but I cannot tolerate ANY degree of fraud, vandalism or trickery.

 

[heavy_mech]

Let me clarify a bit.

If there was a rifle on a table that ws all mismatched, but yet unmessed with finish and serial wise, yes, I would pay $200 for one happily as a shooter, and have paid more (for GOOD RC's for example).

If I saw this Sauer on the table with not only incorrect parts, but ground and fraudulently reserialled, reblued, sanded, and otherwise generally boinked with, then to me it is not worth even a cent. It's lost ANY "history" it may have had even as a collection of parts as those parts are now vandalised and ruined forever. I have stripped RC K98's for parts that retain their original serials to reassemble the junk ones that have ground down serials. The rifle in question to me is not even worth it as a shooter - best use for it to ME would be deactivated and sold to a reenactor.

To each their own. I can live with legitimate mismatches, but I cannot tolerate ANY degree of fraud, vandalism or trickery.

I hear you and I agree. However I have not seen an honest, unmessed with rifle for under $1000. in well over a year. Most I've actually seen were $1200 on up to $2k+.

I'm sure he didn't realize it but that rifle was deliberately restamped in an attempt to create a "matching" rifle. Even I can spot some of the more poorly done work.

My main bitch was how low you "valued" it. I understand it's subjective and a true collector probably wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole however prices for parts in the last year have gotten ridiculous. $300+ for stocks? $200-300+ for bolts? Komifornia folks post that RC's are going for $550-700 there. People will say they'd rather have an "honest" RC than a fraudulent fake. Agreed, but I still don't think he got taken as bad as many others have. At least he doesn't have Frankenberry smashed into it!

 

[tsmgguy]

A couple of pics of the receiver of the rifle in post 14 above. Appears to be pretty typical for a '43 Sauer & Sohn K43. This particular rifle is very nice, near mint, with all matching serial numbers and a perfect bore. The right side of the receiver bears a E/280 WaA stamp.

The original blue finish on the receiver ring is fairly glossy, but most of the shine you see there is from a light coat of oil.

 

[Stephan98k]

Maybe this short article will help.

Scroll up to see pics of the receiver markings of my ce 43 K98.

http://www.ycgg.org/pdfpages/ww2/Sauer.pdf

I think Stan means with "straight script ce" the vertical script, like I mentioned in my post #25.

The article was good, but it's older and not up to date. Here is a part about the ce 42:

"The 1942 Sauer K98k has two variations based on the manufacturing code. The slanted Script “ce” was
changed to a vertical script in th "n" serial number range. The waffenamt "280" as a final acceptance proof
appeared on the right side of the receiver ring in the “p” serial number range, and the use of subcontract
buttplates (“gqm”). It appears that when the shape of the code letters was changed the style of the Mod.98 on
the siderail was also changed from block to script letters (it is not known if both changes occurred at the same
time). Stocks are branch of service marked (Heer) the known serial number range is from 3139 to 3339s,
with an estimated production run of 195.000 rifles."

It's correct, there are two variations based on the manufacturing code. But it wasn't a final change and not in "n" block, they appear already before, as example in "g" and h" block. In my post #25 I mentioned some very early vertical script in "b" block, "a" block and "without suffix", but I forgot to say it's a special case. Certainly these early ce 42 haven't passed the acceptance at the beginning and later in that year they was accepted because the Wehrmacht needed a lot of rifles.
The ce 42 production was mixed, no final change and the majority is with slanted script.

In the article is written "The waffenamt "280" as a final acceptance proof appeared on the right side of the receiver ring in the “p” serial number range".
I would say the Waffenamt "280" on the right side of the receiver ring isn't the final acceptance, it's the hardness acceptance stamp of the Erma receiver. The final acceptance is the Waffenamt "37" with the eagle on top of the receiver ring.
The "p" block is also not correct, the "280" appeared together with the vertical script manufacturer code, see my examples above.
It's known the "Mod. 98" on the siderail changed from block to script letters at the same time, but you can only see the "Mod. 98" in script letters on Erma receivers with the hardness acceptance stamp "280". Walther receiver, with the hardness acceptance stamp "359", have always the "Mod. 98" in block letters.

I have made a little collage with the manufacturer code variations in 1942 and 1943, in order to guard against misunderstandings.

Greetings,
Stephan

 

[Intruder196]

I guess I'm one of those guys. Maybe the rifle is worth $200 to someone, but I wouldn't pay $200 for it. Seriously. If it was on a table at a guns show, I'd pass for two hundred.

A $200 shooter grade K98 wouldn't last beyond the first opening hour of a gun show around here. It would have been sold quick at that price.

 

[J3Colt]

Let me clarify a bit.

If there was a rifle on a table that ws all mismatched, but yet unmessed with finish and serial wise, yes, I would pay $200 for one happily as a shooter, and have paid more (for GOOD RC's for example).

If I saw this Sauer on the table with not only incorrect parts, but ground and fraudulently reserialled, reblued, sanded, and otherwise generally boinked with, then to me it is not worth even a cent. It's lost ANY "history" it may have had even as a collection of parts as those parts are now vandalised and ruined forever. I have stripped RC K98's for parts that retain their original serials to reassemble the junk ones that have ground down serials. The rifle in question to me is not even worth it as a shooter - best use for it to ME would be deactivated and sold to a reenactor.

To each their own. I can live with legitimate mismatches, but I cannot tolerate ANY degree of fraud, vandalism or trickery.

I can appreciate the input and I've learned a lot about K98k's from this purchase. I've also learned that there is a lot of snobbery going on here too.

Prior to my misguided purchase, I handled a few JP Sauers at the local Heritage Guild that had price tags of $1,200 - $1,500 on them, and yes they must all be in "collector" condition since they had dirt and crud on them from 70 years ago (whether or not it's real Nazi dirt or dirt from Uncle Fred's farm in Idaho remains a mystery).

To me and my untrained eye, the rifle that I got on Gun Broker seemed like a fair deal. To say that you'd pass it by is your prerogative; to say that it's not worth $200 is a bit ridiculous. It's a beautiful rifle and it's solidly built--much nicer than my untouched M48 that started this whole thing.

It's a shame that there are people out there willing to ruin the historic values of these fine arms in order to deceive others. However, life is way too short, and I'm not going to obsess over whether it's got the right bayonet lug on it, or if it has the wrong slant to the CE, and what provenance it does or doesn't have.

I'm not planning on trying to deceive anyone in the future as I intend to shoot the piss out of it, and I would certainly never think of deactivating a perfectly fine rifle because somebody doesn't think that it has the right Grey Poupon on the label.

 

[heavy10]

You sure are getting piled on a bit, and yes, your rifle is not original as it was presented. You're certainly taking the bad news better than others in your position. Don't let some negative comments dissuade you from this forum or from pursuing other Kar98k rifles. This forum contains a mountain of collective knowledge, and is very free with sharing information. If you find yourself perusing another 98k, there is a large number of leading forum members you can contact via PM to give an honest assessment of your potential purchase.

 

[Stan]

I think Stan means with "straight script ce" the vertical script, like I mentioned in my post #25.

The article was good, but it's older and not up to date. Here is a part about the ce 42:

"The 1942 Sauer K98k has two variations based on the manufacturing code. The slanted Script “ce” was
changed to a vertical script in th "n" serial number range. The waffenamt "280" as a final acceptance proof
appeared on the right side of the receiver ring in the “p” serial number range, and the use of subcontract
buttplates (“gqm”). It appears that when the shape of the code letters was changed the style of the Mod.98 on
the siderail was also changed from block to script letters (it is not known if both changes occurred at the same
time). Stocks are branch of service marked (Heer) the known serial number range is from 3139 to 3339s,
with an estimated production run of 195.000 rifles."

It's correct, there are two variations based on the manufacturing code. But it wasn't a final change and not in "n" block, they appear already before, as example in "g" and h" block. In my post #25 I mentioned some very early vertical script in "b" block, "a" block and "without suffix", but I forgot to say it's a special case. Certainly these early ce 42 haven't passed the acceptance at the beginning and later in that year they was accepted because the Wehrmacht needed a lot of rifles.
The ce 42 production was mixed, no final change and the majority is with slanted script.

In the article is written "The waffenamt "280" as a final acceptance proof appeared on the right side of the receiver ring in the “p” serial number range".
I would say the Waffenamt "280" on the right side of the receiver ring isn't the final acceptance, it's the hardness acceptance stamp of the Erma receiver. The final acceptance is the Waffenamt "37" with the eagle on top of the receiver ring.
The "p" block is also not correct, the "280" appeared together with the vertical script manufacturer code, see my examples above.
It's known the "Mod. 98" on the siderail changed from block to script letters at the same time, but you can only see the "Mod. 98" in script letters on Erma receivers with the hardness acceptance stamp "280". Walther receiver, with the hardness acceptance stamp "359", have always the "Mod. 98" in block letters.

I have made a little collage with the manufacturer code variations in 1942 and 1943, in order to guard against misunderstandings.

Greetings,
Stephan

Yes, vertical script was what I was referring to. I did repeat it as "straight script" since Robbie mentioned it in his post. Good illustration showing the different code fonts!

Also, I would like to second heavy10's post above. We learn about what's correct and what's not on these rifles by observing numerous original examples. Hopefully we all learn more everyday by continuing to do this!

 

[nirvana]

It's a shame that there are people out there willing to ruin the historic values of these fine arms in order to deceive others. However, life is way too short, and I'm not going to obsess over whether it's got the right bayonet lug on it, or if it has the wrong slant to the CE, and what provenance it does or doesn't have.

I'm not planning on trying to deceive anyone in the future as I intend to shoot the piss out of it, and I would certainly never think of deactivating a perfectly fine rifle because somebody doesn't think that it has the right Grey Poupon on the label.

This is what I would do as well. I'm sure that the rifle shoots plenty well, and you can take it to the range without worrying about a ding on the stock or a scratch on the bluing. That others would pass on it is entirely subjective, as you have noted. I remember the first time I got burned on something. It was a pistol that was advertised as having the original finish. When it showed up, there was fine putting under the bluing. Live and learn. That was a $800 lesson.

 

[J3Colt]

Update...

Just wanted to share some more knowledge about this particular rifle. The new custodian of this fine K98 provided me with some fascinating news...

He received an extensive reply from the Armory Records Keeper Johan Schumacher, at the "Guard Battalion FMD" stating that CE42 9704 M was part of their inventory from May 1957 till March of 1995 when they purged over 465 Nazi marked K98k's from their holdings due to political correctness mandates and released for sale/auction to the International civilian military surplus rifle market later that Fall.

The M underneath the serial number btw designated it for the Navy Division of the Battalions use and he indicated that ALL their original K98K's went through an extensive refurbishment process in order to meet the uniformity standards prescribed by the Battalions needs in order to complete their duties as Germany's official Military Honor Guard.

In his original email he requested that if it was indeed part of their inventory at anytime, that a letter with their Official Command Letterhead stating such could be drafted and sent. He indicated he has done that for him. That it was signed by himself and will have the current Commander of the Battalion, LTCOL Kau Beinke sign it as well and he will be sending it out asap.

So, regardless of the "combat" collectability factor, I think this is a pretty special rifle worthy of any K98 collection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wachbataillon

 

[ABHC FLT DK Chief]

There's always more to the story....

After reading this entire thread, I am convinced more than ever that many on the internet do NOT know as much as they lead you to believe they do.

I am the new custodian of this fine K98K and noticed that not one of the "Experts" on this thread stated anything to the fact that in 1942, JP Sauer ie CE, changed their logo from the slanted italic version CE to a straight vertical marking. Reason being that they expanded their manufacturing facilities to accommodate the overwhelming demand for more rifles. Nor the fact that JP Sauer was in a messed up situation after having one of those new facilities destroyed in Oct 42 by an Allied Bombing Raid which led to some dysfunctional markings and assembly procedures.

Oh, and not one had asked the OP if he had dismantled this particular rifle in order to do a thorough inspection. Had someone done so, he would have noticed the stock was clean and sanded as well as the imprints "WBBMVg 57"on both sides of the stock hidden underneath the Buttstock Plate. My doing so led me to do some investigation resulting in some very cool and fascinating history as was indicated by the OP's recent post.

Thank God I did not read this thread prior to purchasing it from the OP.

EDIT: The history of the K98K JP Sauer dysfunctional manufacturing and Script changes in 1942 was determined directly from JP Sauer DE through an email i sent yesterday. You'd be amazed at what many of these older historical weapons manufactures will divulge if only asked, nicely. Oh, and they keep some really good records btw.

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

After reading this entire thread, I am convinced more than ever that many on the internet do NOT know as much as they lead you to believe they do.

I am the new custodian of this fine K98K and noticed that not one of the "Experts" on this thread stated anything to the fact that in 1942, JP Sauer ie CE, changed their logo from the slanted italic version CE to a straight vertical marking. Reason being that they expanded their manufacturing facilities to accommodate the overwhelming demand for more rifles. Nor the fact that JP Sauer was in a messed up situation after having one of those new facilities destroyed in Oct 42 by an Allied Bombing Raid which led to some dysfunctional markings and assembly procedures.

Oh, and not one had asked the OP if he had dismantled this particular rifle in order to do a thorough inspection. Had someone done so, he would have noticed the stock was clean and sanded as well as the imprints "WBBMVg 57"on both sides of the stock hidden underneath the Buttstock Plate. My doing so led me to do some investigation resulting in some very cool and fascinating history as was indicated by the OP's recent post.

Thank God I did not read this thread prior to purchasing it from the OP.

EDIT: The history of the K98K JP Sauer dysfunctional manufacturing and Script changes in 1942 was determined directly from JP Sauer DE through an email i sent yesterday. You'd be amazed at what many of these older historical weapons manufactures will divulge if only asked, nicely. Oh, and they keep some really good records btw.

Hi ABHC FLT DK Chief, I also own a CE42. Out of curiosity, could you please share your exchanges with JPS (even if they are in German) ? Thanks !

 

[Stan]

After reading this entire thread, I am convinced more than ever that many on the internet do NOT know as much as they lead you to believe they do.

I am the new custodian of this fine K98K and noticed that not one of the "Experts" on this thread stated anything to the fact that in 1942, JP Sauer ie CE, changed their logo from the slanted italic version CE to a straight vertical marking. Reason being that they expanded their manufacturing facilities to accommodate the overwhelming demand for more rifles. Nor the fact that JP Sauer was in a messed up situation after having one of those new facilities destroyed in Oct 42 by an Allied Bombing Raid which led to some dysfunctional markings and assembly procedures.

Oh, and not one had asked the OP if he had dismantled this particular rifle in order to do a thorough inspection. Had someone done so, he would have noticed the stock was clean and sanded as well as the imprints "WBBMVg 57"on both sides of the stock hidden underneath the Buttstock Plate. My doing so led me to do some investigation resulting in some very cool and fascinating history as was indicated by the OP's recent post.

Thank God I did not read this thread prior to purchasing it from the OP.

EDIT: The history of the K98K JP Sauer dysfunctional manufacturing and Script changes in 1942 was determined directly from JP Sauer DE through an email i sent yesterday. You'd be amazed at what many of these older historical weapons manufactures will divulge if only asked, nicely. Oh, and they keep some really good records btw.

Very interesting! Can you post photos of the hidden markings for future reference? I think post war altered rifles are fine, as long as that is how they are presented. This rifle was posted as "original matching" and was asked for feedback, which was received. The consensus was that it had been altered.
As far as the "ce" script font, that issue was brought up in post #23 by a different member in regards to HIS ce42 rifle being different from the OP's style font. There were at least two replies (posts #25 and #29)that went into detail on the changes that occurred in 1942-43 on the marking. The latter one showing illustrations of the various types of font, so not sure why you say it wasn't addressed.
I'm still not sure if you are saying the altered features on this rifle was the result of "dysfunctional manufacturing" at Sauer in 1942, or that they are from post war refurbishment by the Wachbataillon? Also interesting that it missed getting import marked if it was released for sale in 1995.

 

[GeeRam]

Update...

Just wanted to share some more knowledge about this particular rifle. The new custodian of this fine K98 provided me with some fascinating news...

He received an extensive reply from the Armory Records Keeper Johan Schumacher, at the "Guard Battalion FMD" stating that CE42 9704 M was part of their inventory from May 1957 till March of 1995 when they purged over 465 Nazi marked K98k's from their holdings due to political correctness mandates and released for sale/auction to the International civilian military surplus rifle market later that Fall.

The M underneath the serial number btw designated it for the Navy Division of the Battalions use and he indicated that ALL their original K98K's went through an extensive refurbishment process in order to meet the uniformity standards prescribed by the Battalions needs in order to complete their duties as Germany's official Military Honor Guard.

In his original email he requested that if it was indeed part of their inventory at anytime, that a letter with their Official Command Letterhead stating such could be drafted and sent. He indicated he has done that for him. That it was signed by himself and will have the current Commander of the Battalion, LTCOL Kau Beinke sign it as well and he will be sending it out asap.

So, regardless of the "combat" collectability factor, I think this is a pretty special rifle worthy of any K98 collection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wachbataillon

A ex-Wachbataillon rifle, very cool........

 

[ABHC FLT DK Chief]

Also interesting that it missed getting import marked if it was released for sale in 1995.

Well, from what I understand, the previous owner prior to the OP was probably a Retired Senior "O" (US Army or USAF)/VA Surgeon and I imagine he was stationed somewhere in Deutschland during or after the sale and purchased it private party. Then put it in his household goods when he moved/rotated back to CONUS. Very Common thing to do actually. Thus NO import mark.

As far as the verical/slanted CE 42 markings, my bad and apologies for missing the ensuing posts.

I'm still not sure if you are saying the altered features on this rifle was the result of "dysfunctional manufacturing" at Sauer in 1942, or that they are from post war refurbishment by the Wachbataillon?

I suggest maybe both. But for the sake of logic and reason, the latter would be more accurate. The email I received from the Wachbataillon Armorer clearly indicated that all of the original inducted K98K's were heavily refurbished in order to be consistent in presentation for their operations. From the looks of their Honor rifles in all their photos, that obviously appears to be some very in depth and detailed hard work.



Seriously Gentlemen, after reading the first page and half of this thread, I was totally dismayed by the "Holier than Thou" attitudes that were being posted by several of the "Senior" Members towards the OP's K98k. What got my craw was that this was the OP's first K98 post. What a way to be welcomed.

Like I posted, I am thankful that I did not read this thread prior to purchasing the rifle from the OP. I may have missed out on one hell of K98K gem.

Just food for thought Gents from an Old Salty Retired Navy Deckplate Chief.....