HK 1936 17521

[1933 FORD NUT]

Good to know.
HK was the sole supplier of P.08's to the luftwaffe in 1936 and 1937.
That would be the 10,000 contract.
A very few stragglers in 1938 but not many.

Pretty safe to say most were not issued to paratroops.

Really interesting that there are a fairly large number of these surviving in very good shape.
An absolutely beautiful example turned up in Spain a while back.
A 1936 and close to factory new condition.

The gun you are asking about here is a known variation. Not much talked about but for sure a known variation.

Again the proof on the right side of barrel should be through the blue.
It confirms these guns were indeed accepted by the Luftwaffe.

 

[RyanE]

I've added pics from sale in Europe to the post for posterity.

I’m no specialist of these HK Luftwaffe P08, but I wonder of they were earmarked for Fallschirmjägers or the big brass or if they were issued indiscriminately.

I would expect they entered the Luftwaffe's logistical system as just P08 and would have been issued out without much regard for who received them. Mauser, HK, old WW1 era reworks, didn't matter.

I again do not think these 17000 range were accepted by the Luftwaffe, or at least they were not accepted for German service. All of these lack the BAL2 acceptance normal production has, but the military proofing indicates it was not "rejected". Rejects were either scrapped (assuming the errors could not be corrected) or possibly diverted to commercial sales. The lack of commercial proofing rules that out. The military proofing would suggest to me an export contract, but who knows.

For illustration, some pics of some of the water cooled MG15 exported to Romania (as the ST.61) by Rheinmetall. Note BAL1 acceptance, but not full military acceptance you would see on the German production. I don't have pictures to prove it, but I would expect the barrels supplied with these would have military proofing also. No commercial proofing is seen on the weapons, and export weapons were generally at least partially (or sometimes fully) accepted by the military.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

These are not 17,000 range guns. Look at the barrel serials. The 1 is clearly added. Just ordinary 1936 HK guns that had a fixable issue.

Not exactly rare to see goofed up proofing on a HK. Barrel proof is same as mine as is the kinda out of place right receiver proof.

Call it what you want but these have been considered Luft guns by many. Odd yes but that is not out of place with HK's either.

Should add I am only talking about the gun that started the thread ,17480 and 7475

 

[RyanE]

These are not 17,000 range guns. Look at the barrel serials. The 1 is clearly added. Just ordinary 1936 HK guns that had a fixable issue.

Not exactly rare to see goofed up proofing on a HK. Barrel proof is same as mine as is the kinda out of place right receiver proof.

Call it what you want but these have been considered Luft guns by many. Odd yes but that is not out of place with HK's either.

1. There are multiple known examples and all are consistent and in the same serial range (I am excluding the "engraved" crap)
2. They all lack proper BAL2 acceptance on the receiver. If these were "fixed", BAL2 would have accepted them. They would not have a leading 1 added either.
3. Matching magazines are consistent in type and font and all lack the usual BAL2 acceptance

Why the barrels are not numbered with the 1, who knows. Its possible the tooling was not setup at the time for 5 digits.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

You have got to be kidding.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Compare 7475, 7480 and 7521.
Ignore the added 1's and the missing left receiver proofs on 7480 and 7521.
What do you see .
I will let that do the talking.
I prefer the old way of examining the guns themselves.

Yes I am from the luger site as some already know.
Just stopped by to see what was up here and I happen to have a gun real close to these two.

We are getting MUCH attention from Ryan there.
I see it is no different here.

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

I've added pics from sale in Europe to the post for posterity.



I would expect they entered the Luftwaffe's logistical system as just P08 and would have been issued out without much regard for who received them. Mauser, HK, old WW1 era reworks, didn't matter.

I again do not think these 17000 range were accepted by the Luftwaffe, or at least they were not accepted for German service. All of these lack the BAL2 acceptance normal production has, but the military proofing indicates it was not "rejected". Rejects were either scrapped (assuming the errors could not be corrected) or possibly diverted to commercial sales. The lack of commercial proofing rules that out. The military proofing would suggest to me an export contract, but who knows.

For illustration, some pics of some of the water cooled MG15 exported to Romania (as the ST.61) by Rheinmetall. Note BAL1 acceptance, but not full military acceptance you would see on the German production. I don't have pictures to prove it, but I would expect the barrels supplied with these would have military proofing also. No commercial proofing is seen on the weapons, and export weapons were generally at least partially (or sometimes fully) accepted by the military.

Thanks Ryan for the addition of the pics.
To follow-up on my digression about the issuance, I asked this question because I know some pics in French archives (ECPAD) of the training of the 2.FJD in 1943 in France and all those new recruits seem to have P08 :

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

More paratroops. Pics from 1941.
Kurt Student in one.
Fits the bill of high ranking officer
Any Legion Condor pics around with P.08's.
Those would have a decent chance of being HK's.

ADDED some pics. One in Belgian fort 1940 is very common but I have not seen it colorized before. Found many more looking for early ones. ENJOY

ADDED last pic is interesting as both mags are beside each gun.
Look like Mausers to me?

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

For any that want to compare a better pic of frame serial

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Some mags from this range.
The + on 7418 is post-production.
Note proof on 7581. Very common on later guns.
Note placement of fonts.

ADDING edited out mag 7591 as it was a mistake

 

[RyanE]

All of these 17000 guns have the normal HK font (including on the mags) just like your 7000 range, so I am not sure what you are getting at.

I want to keep the thread focused on the 17000 range, but you need to take a much closer look at magazine 7581 with the broken acceptance. It uses the odd font exclusive to the "late war" guns. It was never used 1935-1940.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

First 2 pics are of mags with added 1's.
Followed by true 17,000 range [ presentation] mags.
Kinda obvious to me. Anyone else?

Mag 7581 is not mine so I cannot give it a proper look. Does not scare me though.
7591 was an ooppps .
Does not belong.

Point I am chasing is these are 7,000 range guns with added 1's on frame and receiver.

" tooling was not setup " on barrel fonts?????
Really? Are you kidding?
All fonts on HK lugers are hand stamped.

You seem to wear out the " never and "fake" terms.

I am submitting evidence.
Let the troops form their own opinions.

 

[RyanE]

Point I am chasing is these are 7,000 range guns with added 1's on frame and receiver.

Who is disputing that the 1 was added separately? Arguing over whether to call these "7000" or "17000" is a waste of time. They are not rejects or commercial guns, they are a distinct variation that (if legit) were probably not intended for the Luftwaffe.

I'll just also add that the so called "presentation" guns are always commercially proofed (like 17232) at least as far as I know. Unlike these.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

The true 17,000 range guns are NOTHING like these.
The true 17,000 range guns [ to include Goerings platinum plated16999] are very well documented .
Eisenhower was presented one of the gold plated ones. To my knowledge that one has never surfaced. Nor has the cased set of three Gold, Silver and platinum.
They are indeed rejects with 5 point stars visible on some.
The quote below is referencing these as they are indeed engraved

These examples under discussion here are standard contract 7,000 range 1936 dated guns.
That is the reason for the comparisons.
For whatever the reason [ stiff locking bolts has been mentioned in the past] they did not get the left receiver proof. They do indeed have the FINAL proof.
The 1 was clearly added after the serial was applied but not to the barrel.
Did notice there is no 4 point star in the front frame well of the example this thread is about

We are not talking flare guns or whatever here.
We are talking about HK produced lugers.

Same issue to me as calling all post 1940 guns "late war".
Gibson in his 1979 book called the " 1944 production" fake. The 1944 production is of course the 1945 guns.
Gibson in his sly humor stated "they may have been produced elswhere". That and not listing Ralphs butchered 11278 as a 1941 in the serial list are my 2 favorite Randall jabs.

I see by your "late war" forum that has not been noticed yet.

Same issue to me calling these 17,000 range guns.
Would 1-prefix 7480 make any sense .
Or possibly 1-7480
Or even 1 7480
Would to me.

1. There are multiple known examples and all are consistent and in the same serial range (I am excluding the "engraved" crap)

 

[Marsouin_2]

For sale in France :

KRIEGHOFF P08 9X19 REF: 4342

www.henry-huret.com

Genuine or turd ?

I got it recently!
Everything was perfect concerning this pistol, except the fact that I found a four branches star in the pistol , which explain the fact there was not acceptance mark on the right side.
If you Make some search on internet you would discover than, in 1937, you could find a Krieghoff with the number 7521!

For sale in France :

KRIEGHOFF P08 9X19 REF: 4342

www.henry-huret.com

Genuine or turd ?

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

I got it recently!
Everything was perfect concerning this pistol, except the fact that I found a four branches star in the pistol , which explain the fact there was not acceptance mark on the right side.
If you Make some search on internet you would discover than, in 1937, you could find a Krieghoff with the number 7521!

Congratulations ! Would you mind posting some pictures on the forum ?

 

[Marsouin_2]

You have already post the good snapshot of this pistol
I should try to make a good picture of the four branches star in the receiver.