Help with DWM (Commercial?) Identification

[spencerhut]

Came across this and not sure what I have. Pulled the metal from the stock to clean it since it was filthy from years of storage. I thought it was a typical sporterized Mauser, it is not.
Original blue. No marks of any kind from modifications to the metal. Metal appears to be all original. The Lyman front and rear sight are in great shape, no modifications to install them, no extra holes anywhere.
Seems to be a 7x57mm Mauser.
Serial Number 68. Really? This thing is plastered with 68 on everything. The wood to metal fit was so tight I thought it was glass bedded, it is not.
Anyone . . . ?

Does not appear to be a rebarrel

The sights are not factory, but seem to be period correct for the gun. Installed by the user or the importer would be my guess.

I own a gun store, so I've seen a LOT of re-blued guns, a lot. The receiver ring is as round and perfect as the day DWM made it. I can find no indication of the re-profiling that occurs when a crest is smoothed out.

No dates I could find. The proof marks on the left of the receiver ring indicate pre 1912 manufacture. No crest on commercial / sporter Mauser's, from my understanding, is not unusual at all.
I did a complete tear-down and sonic tank clean and all the small parts have good indications of original finish wear and the majority of the fire blue remaining. Just about every part on the gun has a "68" on it.
Stock is also marked "68"

 

[spencerhut]

Updated original post with more info and pictures of the stock.

Anyone know what this is?

 

[Loewe]

This rifle apparently falls within the earlier discussions we had regarding commercial DWM rifle production.

A fellow collector, Bob T., emailed me the below lastnight:

"Paul: The DWM sporter on the 98k forum today is much like the one I mentioned to you in my e-mails of May 19-20-21. DWM commercial legend on the left side rail, nothing on the top of the ring, standard 21 point something inch (more or less and I can’t remember the exact metric figure just now) military style barrel as used in the Brazilian 1908 7 m/m short rifle. Even serialed on the right side of bbl and receiver as the previous one. One difference is this one has a standard G.98 triggerguard rather than the Argentine 1909 style with the hinged floor plate. Either this one is a replacement, or maybe the parts bin ran out of hinged plates ones). Don’t really recognize the rear sight, but it’s probably a Lyman (certainly Lyman-like) and added in this country. Note that the original folding leaf has been removed from the rear of the barrel. God only knows how it got to the U.S.; its likely original purpose was as a thank-you to the officers of the purchasing commission in some South American country for buying DWM. Bob"

The earlier threads that may prove useful (I assume you have seen them and this is the reason you brought this rifle, and question, to this forum):

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?22233-Pre-WWI-Commercially-Produced-Gew-98s (pay attention to post #5)

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?22130-Pre-WWI-Commercially-Produced-Gew-98s (Post #10)

 

[spencerhut]

Thank you for the reply. I have not been stumped by any firearm in my short 47 years and this one got me, but good. The only reason it got a second glance before it was sold off in the store for $200 was the serial number, 68. I was born in 1968 and it made me curious . . . down the rabbit hole I have fallen.

The front and rear sight are a set made for the M98 by Lyman in the 1906 time frame. The rear is a Lyman #35 and it is a functioning work of art.

The triggerguard fits the wood as perfectly as one could hope for and is serialized 68 as is every other part with a number.

The stock is a bit disappointing, but it may be repairable.

All the metal, once cleaned was simply astonishing. The high amount of fire blue on the internal springs and small parts was a shock.

The only blemishes are on the muzzle, steel butt plate and trigger guard. What unbelievable luck to find any 100+ year old gun with the metal in such good condition.

 

[spencerhut]

The conclusion I have drawn from this and two other web forums is since this #68 has no Made in Germany, model or year markings of any type and being S/N 68 with such minimal markings on it I'm leaning towards this gun being a gift or bribe for some South American officer.

Being without any embellishments on the wood or the metal does seem strange to me. A cost savings so as not to waste money on a gun being given away? Was the lack of any crest markings, checkering on the stock or even a model number indicate not a gun made for sale, but one made for a sample of the quality and function? Or perhaps even showing the blank canvas of metal available to the purchaser?

I'm still leaning towards this gun being a freebie back in the day by some DWM sales rep to an influential officer perhaps. The gun somehow made it to the US shortly thereafter and the new owner put what was the best set of iron sights he could obtain at the time on the gun. The gun was fired very little since the bore looks almost new and was likely carried a lot based on the floor plate / trigger guard wear. The butt plate seems to have taken the brunt of the wear over the last 100 years likely from sitting in a closet.

I've contacted several companies to get an estimate on if the stock can be put back to it's former glory. I'm sure it can be. So it will get repaired, fired, oiled, placed into a gun sock and placed into my collection.

 

[Loewe]

I suspect the stock has been altered considerably since its presentation. It was common practice to gift important people with rifles, and to send special rifles to entice contracts. Jon Speed has detailed several such cases, some incredibly elaborate, like one sent to the Sultan of Turkey in 1903.

While we are focused upon German military contracts on this discussion forum, the two firms owned by Loewe, DWM and Mauser Oberndorf, spent most of their time courting foreign dignitaries and purchasing commissions... one must remember, as it pertains to the G98, DWM and Mauser received only small contracts to actually make rifles for the military until 1905-1906, almost all the early G98's were made at the state arsenals, - they were excluded entirely from making the carbines (K98a). During this early phase, 1900-1906 Mauser made relative handfuls compared to the arsenals (they made more G98 for the German Army in 1906 than all the years prior by known ranges); at DWM they were almost entirely stuck making KM rifles (Imperial German Navy) until 1905, which meant they made very few G98's for the German military.

In this time frame, prior to 1906-1907 (when both took on huge contracts for the German military, - while the arsenals tooled up to make the carbines), DWM and Mauser were courting foreign contracts (DWM also working on the soon to be MG08 and P.08). Attached find a picture of a Chinese delegation at Mauser in 1905-07... courtesy of Jon Speed.

 

[spencerhut]

I suspect the stock has been altered considerably since its presentation. It was common practice to gift important people with rifles, and to send special rifles to entice contracts. Jon Speed has detailed several such cases, some incredibly elaborate, like one sent to the Sultan of Turkey in 1903.

While we are focused upon German military contracts on this discussion forum, the two firms owned by Loewe, DWM and Mauser Oberndorf, spent most of their time courting foreign dignitaries and purchasing commissions... one must remember, as it pertains to the G98, DWM and Mauser received only small contracts to actually make rifles for the military until 1905-1906, almost all the early G98's were made at the state arsenals, - they were excluded entirely from making the carbines (K98a). During this early phase, 1900-1906 Mauser made relative handfuls compared to the arsenals (they made more G98 for the German Army in 1906 than all the years prior by known ranges); at DWM they were almost entirely stuck making KM rifles (Imperial German Navy) until 1905, which meant they made very few G98's for the German military.

In this time frame, prior to 1906-1907 (when both took on huge contracts for the German military, - while the arsenals tooled up to make the carbines), DWM and Mauser were courting foreign contracts (DWM also working on the soon to be MG08 and P.08). Attached find a picture of a Chinese delegation at Mauser in 1905-07... courtesy of Jon Speed.

I've seen *many* modified stocks, this is not one. This stock is as it was the day it left the factory with the addition of a slight warp and a crack. I've seen other *identical* stocks on Mauser Sporters on the web, though not in person.

All the missing markings on this gun mean something, though I admit I can not find what. This gun was special in some way, be it stolen from the factory or given as a gift or a bribe. In all the researching I've done I have yet to see a gun with so few markings. It means something, perhaps ten years in my safe will tell.

 

[Loewe]

Perhaps so, - Mauser Archives shows some sporters made with half stocks, but commercial rifles are not an interest of mine. I only follow them to the extent they serve my interests in military production.

 

[spencerhut]

Perhaps so, - Mauser Archives shows some sporters made with half stocks, but commercial rifles are not an interest of mine. I only follow them to the extent they serve my interests in military production.

Completely understandable. As I stated I'm just interested since it has me stumped. Even after posting many pictures and all the information I can find on this and a couple other forums, no one seems to know what it really is.

I'll be holding on to it for the time being. I've never had a gun I could not figure out before.

 

[C.P.Goerz]

I have been looking at these postings on the DWM commercial rifles with interest.i am interested in both the german made military rifles and sporter rifles.i think that some of these DWM commercial rifles were provided along with the military contract rifles the same as MO sporters were provided with the DWM argentine contract.also the standard military rifles and barreled actions and actions were sold to gun retailers and gunsmiths maybe through the Gunmaker's Guild or a distributer like ALPHA.the basic military style sporters started appearing after the introduction of the Mauser Armyman's sporter or Model C sporter in 1908.
my DWM sporter #539 has the pre 1911 proofs and is in 8x57 S bore.the barrel looks like a modified GEW98 barrel shortened to 600mm.the bottom of the barrel is gage marked in addition to the nitro proof. the matching M1909 type hinged trigger guard has double set triggers.the stock is a cut down military style stock like rifle #68.the barrel is engraved "OTTO BOCK,HOFLEIFERANT,BERLIN".the receiver had scope bases on it but they are missing.the bolt is turned down like #68.
another DWM sporter #140 ,I have seen,had pre1911 proofs.the stock was the same as used on the pre WW1 MO sporters with the step downs on the sides of the stock behind the bolt handle.the rifle was fitted with an Otto Bock 3x scope using double offset claw mount.the scope was matching to the rifle.
I think DWM rifle #68 was brought back from Germany right after WW1.

 

[Loewe]

Bob came across two more threads about a similar rifle. While nothing ground breaking on the subject it is worth reading and seeing the two threads (first one has some useful information/leads, the second more pictures)

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=318719
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/42287#.V2lVZNQrJQJ

 

[spencerhut]

I think DWM rifle #68 was brought back from Germany right after WW1.

Why are there no "Made in Germany" stamps?
Why no caliber markings?
Why no Model markings?
. . . no crest?
. . . no date?

You are not thinking it's a war prize brought back and sporterized . . . are you?

 

[C.P.Goerz]

I am thinking that this rifle was converted from one of the military rifles shown or built from DWM action or barreled action in Germany pre WW1.built as a sporting rifle before WW1 in Germany and brought to the US as a private purchase before WW1 or just after WW1.the proof is pre 1912.so the barreled action assembly was assembled by the end of 1912.could have left DWM as a complete military rifle made from left over parts for commercial sale,in Germany, or as DWM made parts that were assembled later but before the end of 1912.many of the mauser military rifles were available from distributers like ALFHA.you could even buy a new GEW98 german army inspected rifle from ALFHA that was to be shipped right from a german army depot.this would be similar to what was going on with Springfield Armory and M1903 rifles in the US.many M98 mauser actions and parts and complete military rifles were bought by german gunsmiths and built into sporting rifles.there were thousands of gunsmiths in Germany in mostly small family run shops running a cottage industry.they were building guns for the Guild,the Gunmakers Guild,and these guns were going to gunsmith/retailers and sporting good/retailers.seldom is there a gunmakers name on the gun just the retailers name,sometimes the gunsmith was also the retailer.all the guns made and sold in Germany had to have proof marks.besides the pressure test the guns had to pass a quality of work inspection.
I have seen even major makers marks on guild guns but not their name and have a retailer name on the barrel.
in the 1911-1912 period the german proof law was modified.first,i am finding,the bore marking changed from bore gage to bore mm diameter in 1911.example,8mm bore is 156.14 gage however this included barrels of .316",.318",.323"groove.after the change 7,7mm for .316" groove,7.87mm for .318" groove,7.91 for .323"groove.
later in 1911 I am seeing the change from proof powder weight,GBP,and proof bullet type,St.m.G.to proof bullet type,St.M.G. and proof bullet weight,10gm.
"Made in Germany" marking only used on guns exported from Germany to the US for retail sale in the US.only US has the law requiring marking of the country of origin on items to be sold at retail in the US.
cartridge marking not required until 1939 proof law.usually can tell what the cartridge is by the bore marking and case length on the bottom of the barrel.sometimes there is a marking above the stock line.my DWM sporter is marked "8S"on the top of the barrel shoulder but I think that is a gunsmith/retailer marking.
my DWM action sporter has the 156.14 gage mark and the proof powder and bullet type marking.
these are like custom guns built on M98 action so there is no Model.Mauser,Oberndorf commercial rifles had no Model marking on them.
no crest or date was used because the receivers were not used to fulfil a particular country contract.

 

[spencerhut]

I am thinking that this rifle was converted from one of the military rifles shown or built from DWM action or barreled action in Germany pre WW1

What signs in the pictures indicate a conversion?

built as a sporting rifle before WW1 in Germany and brought to the US as a private purchase before WW1 or just after WW1.

Possible I guess . . .

could have left DWM as a complete military rifle made from left over parts for commercial sale,in Germany, or as DWM made parts that were assembled later but before the end of 1912.many of the mauser military rifles were available from distributers like ALFHA.you could even buy a new GEW98 german army inspected rifle from ALFHA that was to be shipped right from a german army depot.this would be similar to what was going on with Springfield Armory and M1903 rifles in the US.many M98 mauser actions and parts and complete military rifles were bought by german gunsmiths and built into sporting rifles.there were thousands of gunsmiths in Germany in mostly small family run shops running a cottage industry.they were building guns for the Guild,the Gunmakers Guild,and these guns were going to gunsmith/retailers and sporting good/retailers.seldom is there a gunmakers name on the gun just the retailers name,sometimes the gunsmith was also the retailer.all the guns made and sold in Germany had to have proof marks.besides the pressure test the guns had to pass a quality of work inspection.
I have seen even major makers marks on guild guns but not their name and have a retailer name on the barrel.

No name anywhere on the gun.

in the 1911-1912 period the german proof law was modified.first,i am finding,the bore marking changed from bore gage to bore mm diameter in 1911.example,8mm bore is 156.14 gage however this included barrels of .316",.318",.323"groove.after the change 7,7mm for .316" groove,7.87mm for .318" groove,7.91 for .323"groove.
later in 1911 I am seeing the change from proof powder weight,GBP,and proof bullet type,St.m.G.to proof bullet type,St.M.G. and proof bullet weight,10gm.

No caliber markings of any type, anywhere on the gun.

"Made in Germany" marking only used on guns exported from Germany to the US for retail sale in the US.only US has the law requiring marking of the country of origin on items to be sold at retail in the US.

Understood

cartridge marking not required until 1939 proof law.usually can tell what the cartridge is by the bore marking and case length on the bottom of the barrel.sometimes there is a marking above the stock line.my DWM sporter is marked "8S"on the top of the barrel shoulder but I think that is a gunsmith/retailer marking.
my DWM action sporter has the 156.14 gage mark and the proof powder and bullet type marking.

No caliber markings of any type, anywhere on the gun.

these are like custom guns built on M98 action so there is no Model.Mauser,Oberndorf commercial rifles had no Model marking on them.
no crest or date was used because the receivers were not used to fulfil a particular country contract.

It's pretty plain for being a "custom" gun . . .

 

[mid-age]

I know it been awhile since this post as been use but I also have an a DWM commercial Mauser which has pre-1912 German commercial proof marks on it. My rifle has a 98 receiver with a bent bolt, an Argentine Model 1909 trigger guard with the hinged magazine floor plate, commercial two leaf type rear sight, two claw mounts for a scope. The stock is made of walnut with a semi pistol grip and a schnabel fore-end. I slug the bore and it's size .323", I can safety shot the 8x57JS ammo in it. On the left rail of the receiver is stamp "DEUTSCHE WAFFENUND MUNITIONSFABRIKEN. BERLIN" and on the left side of the barrel are the following proof marks, crown, crown of N, 2,85 G.B.P. over St.m.g. The receiver and bolt has a three digit serial number stamp on them. On all the small parts of the bolt assembly are stamp with the last two numbers of the serial number. On the trigger guard and magazine floor plate there are no numbers on them. There is a four circle diamond proof mark on the bolt, trigger, trigger guard and floor plate. On top of the 23" barrel is stamp "OTTO BOCK, BERLIN KGL HOFLIEFERANT". On the bottom of the barrel is a four digit number 6602 a crown over crown over N German commercial proof mark. The blue finish looks original. From what I can find out about my rifle, which it wasn't easy, that it maybe a DWM gift rifle. Before WWI DWM only made military rifles and not commercial rifles but DWM did wanted to give gift sporting Mauser rifles to high ranking military offers and political leader to help them to get some military contracts. in other words a bride rifles. DWM must have made at less a 1000 of them if not more but didn't give all of them away before WWI started. After WWI under the treaty of Versailles DWM can't make any more military rifles and they need money to stay in business so they must have sold the remaining sporting rifles they had to Otto Bock of Berlin. Now how my rifle got to the USA is lost in history forever. Most likely a returning WWII veteran. Maybe some one on the forum may know more about these rifles.

Mid-age

 

[brcampbe]

I think the idea of sales reps giving free sporting rifles away is far fetched and frankly, made up.

The answer to your rifle is found in the same place as my 1907 Mauser carbine, the ALFA export catalog. Ludwig Loewe controlled both the Oberndorf and DWM factories during this time, so on these commercial contracts you could find both DWM and Mauser Oberndorf marked receivers. Your rifle was marketed as a 1907 sporting rifle in 8mm, and this rifle was also marketed in 9mm. Otto Bock would have been the German company to complete these rifles in partnership with ALFA. Page 458 of ALFA arms of the world in 1911:



The scopes were also available en masse through these distributors.

 

[mid-age]

Thanks brcampbe for the ALFA catalog page. It's another piece of the puzzle on these old Mausers rifles. If I can go back in time to DWM factory before WWII, I know I would be able to find out when and why my commercial 98 Mauser rifle was made and sold to whom since the germans keep very good records on everything they make and do. Too bad most if not all of the DWM Mauser production records got destroyed during and after WWII. Just like I said before the history of my rifle is gone forever and we can only guess what it is.

Mid-age

 

[spencerhut]

I think the idea of sales reps giving free sporting rifles away is far fetched and frankly, made up.

The answer to your rifle is found in the same place as my 1907 Mauser carbine, the ALFA export catalog. Ludwig Loewe controlled both the Oberndorf and DWM factories during this time, so on these commercial contracts you could find both DWM and Mauser Oberndorf marked receivers. Your rifle was marketed as a 1907 sporting rifle in 8mm, and this rifle was also marketed in 9mm. Otto Bock would have been the German company to complete these rifles in partnership with ALFA. Page 458 of ALFA arms of the world in 1911:

View attachment 134741

The scopes were also available en masse through these distributors.

My rifle is a 7x57.

 

[Bear44]

Please see below Post. Had problems with inputting pictures, thank you...

 

[Bear44]

I recently became the new caretaker of this fine 'ol Mauser in 7x57mm. Wasn't quite sure what it was, then found the older Post showing S/N 68. This rifle is S/N 69! Always nice to find information to help understand what a rifle is and where it may have originated and why. The front ring/action screw is not wanting to budge, for now, so have not removed the stock. In looking through a Lyman Rifle and Shotgun Sights 1909 catalog, they show the Lyman 35 sight on page 24, Pricee $7.00. Wonder if the Lyman 35 was added to #68 and #69 when they arrived (however that may have happened) in the US, or installed in Germany at the time this Sporting Rifle was made? Perhaps this type/version of rifle was an import for US sales? S/N 68 shows no factory checkering; whereas #69 shows factory checkering (I feel comfortable in thinking it was factory done checkering, typical Mauser style). I wonder at the scarcity of this Model. What a current market value might be (just curious to here folks' thoughts n' input)? Any input and comments are most welcome and appreciated. It's a classic 'ol Mauser and a splendid shooter as well. thank you folks for your time in looking. regards, Bear44