Gewehrfabrik Danzig Sporting Rifle ! Value

[Fred24]

Hi Guy ! Could anybody give me some informations on a Gewehrfabrik Danzig Rifle that I have the opportunity to buy. It's exactly the same as this picture. The guy is asking 400$ and the rifle seem in great condition considering its age. I don't know anything about it's value..

Let me know what you know !

Thanks

Fred

 

[Loewe]

Difficult to say the value, especially without pictures of the exact rifle, but $400 seems a good deal if it is original and matching.

Danzig, Amberg and Erfurt made similar types of sporters in the aftermath of WWI, Amberg's and Erfurt's are much more scarce than Danzig's. Probably because Danzig made them longer (it was not restricted by Versailles, it was a semi-independent city state, under the protection of the League). Serial ranges suggest Erfurt made nearly as many (difficult to know how many were made, the serial is under the stock and most do not take pictures of the serial, but serial ranges approach the Danzig range. Far fewer are known though), but fewer have survived. Amberg seemingly made very few, possibly only 1000, maybe less.

Danzig made two types, one based upon the Kar.98a, which this is one, and another a .22 model. Both for export it seems, as most, if not all, are marked "GERMANY". The .22 are much more elusive, the 98a variation were made in large number, at least 8000 by serial extension. They are not rare in excellent condition, but $400 seems a good price for one.

Post up the serial number if you have it.

 

[Fred24]

Thanks for your great answer ! The serial number is 1719

The bore looks good and has deep rifling. The wood is in my opinion 85% The blueing is good on the barrel and brown patina on the receiver.

Fred

Difficult to say the value, especially without pictures of the exact rifle, but $400 seems a good deal if it is original and matching.

Danzig, Amberg and Erfurt made similar types of sporters in the aftermath of WWI, Amberg's and Erfurt's are much more scarce than Danzig's. Probably because Danzig made them longer (it was not restricted by Versailles, it was a semi-independent city state, under the protection of the League). Serial ranges suggest Erfurt made nearly as many (difficult to know how many were made, the serial is under the stock and most do not take pictures of the serial, but serial ranges approach the Danzig range. Far fewer are known though), but fewer have survived. Amberg seemingly made very few, possibly only 1000, maybe less.

Danzig made two types, one based upon the Kar.98a, which this is one, and another a .22 model. Both for export it seems, as most, if not all, are marked "GERMANY". The .22 are much more elusive, the 98a variation were made in large number, at least 8000 by serial extension. They are not rare in excellent condition, but $400 seems a good price for one.

Post up the serial number if you have it.

 

[vaughn99]

Hello Loewe,

I was just wondering, I read your post as it looks like you are saying that the Danzig run of sporter hunting rifles and .22 are the same serial entity?? how many of the .22 do you have observed as I have only 1 and its one I found thinking I could used the bases off of it for my Reichswehr rings, they are way smaller, I have never seen 19mm versions of these rings before have you? I have seen 22mm and 26.5mm

Thanks
vaughn

 

[Loewe]

Vaughn, I didn't mean to imply they were serialed together, they were not, they were quite different and uniquely serialed. I have recorded about 10 .22's and a couple dozen 98a sporters. The serialing for the .22 seems to suggest less than 1000 were made.

 

[vaughn99]

Hello,

I can take pics if need be to raise your serial numbers my serial is 1586 on my .22.

later
vaughn

 

[Loewe]

Thanks Vaughn, post a couple pictures, would be good to see it. But i will add it to the trends sheet I maintain either way.

 

[vaughn99]

Hello,


here you go, how many do you have with bases? how many complete with scopes? enjoy let me know if you need any other pics. As you can see in 3 pictures the base are serialed to the gun also. the front is clean the rear looks like a reused over stamped piece.


later
vaughn

 

[Loewe]

Three others outfitted with scope set ups, one without a scope:

223 (see attached)
585 (no scope)

One more that Jeff Noll owned at one time (2005), he discussed it on the private group that some of us use to participate in, some of the moderators, site owners and a few other longtime collectors. He did not state a serial number, but said it was scoped with the same rig 223 describes.

 

[Loewe]

I decided this subject would make a good blog post, yesterday we posted this to our website:

https://gewehr98.wordpress.com/2016/03/24/commercial-sporters-in-the-aftermath-of-world-war-one/

 

[vaughn99]

Hello Loewe,


here's a crazy question, I collect serials for Oigee and I am having a hard time with the scope serials on these 22's. I have about 5 or 6 of the scopes on file or so and all are quite low (3 digit) in serial with one quite high (4k range). the problem I am having is IF this was the beginning of the Oigees serial production the 3 digit serial would be PRE-WWI and we know that Oigee Luxor 3x scope with Gew Rifle Serials present are way later at about 29,000+ range which would KIND of date the scopes to about 1914-1918 so wouldn't a 3 digit serial be about early 1905? were these rifles made pre war I and scopes and mounts added way later but that doesn't make sense? I doubt it due to the mount patterns after the Reichswehr type of the 1920/30's and they look and are marked allot like the center fire Rifles. All I can think of is these scopes are a special production run OUT of the known Oigee serial range of scopes? IF that is true I have yet to record then a serial lower than 3200 for Oigee and all so far are the small power Gnomet 2.5x scopes till about 7500. I also have many blocks of serials missing past 7500 and I think that even though off subject these are for the MG15 sights that top out at about 85,000 but as low as 32,000. just wondering you thoughts on this.

later
vaughn

 

[Loewe]

Vaughn, I do not study optics, so i can't help much here. I do have significant files on optics i have come across over the last two decades but I rarely add to it these days, to the extent I do I focus on the companies/waffenamts.

As to the Danzig sporters, I do not focus on the optics, I am not sure what is "original" and what is post manufacture, but most that have scopes and that are identifiable are Walter Gerard scopes, but I have no idea how original they are, nor do I consider the scopes in my research, other than it was fitted for optics.

These 98a based Danzig sporters were made after the war, not before, I am sure of this, as sure as one can be. For one, Danzig was a state arsenal, not a commercial concern. All period literature suggest the three arsenals were engaged in this practice in the immediate aftermath of the war, nothing suggest prior to the war, and the fireproofs are clearly late war Danzig style, not the pre-war styles Danzig is associated with. That many of these have the Danzig city crest, and not the Prussian or Imperial, or the full pre-1918 name of the arsenal "Königliche Gewehrfabrik" or more common "Kgl Gewehrfabrik", and use "Gewehrfabrik Danzig", which is not how it was used in pre-1918 literature, supports these as post war.

There is only one credible piece of "evidence" that these might be related to pre-war, Lockhoven in 1991 Gun Report (which he and Craig Brown sometimes answered questions for GR) stated that these were pre-war production in his opinion (due to the WWI mounts style and some proof markings he observed as pre-1918; this would be expected as these were made in the immediate aftermath of WWI, I doubt Danzig changed any of this before these were made). I doubt he studied the subject thoroughly, but due to his reputation it is worth considering, but i am pretty sure this is not the case. Nothing else supports it as true.

Hello Loewe,


here's a crazy question, I collect serials for Oigee and I am having a hard time with the scope serials on these 22's. I have about 5 or 6 of the scopes on file or so and all are quite low (3 digit) in serial with one quite high (4k range). the problem I am having is IF this was the beginning of the Oigees serial production the 3 digit serial would be PRE-WWI and we know that Oigee Luxor 3x scope with Gew Rifle Serials present are way later at about 29,000+ range which would KIND of date the scopes to about 1914-1918 so wouldn't a 3 digit serial be about early 1905? were these rifles made pre war I and scopes and mounts added way later but that doesn't make sense? I doubt it due to the mount patterns after the Reichswehr type of the 1920/30's and they look and are marked allot like the center fire Rifles. All I can think of is these scopes are a special production run OUT of the known Oigee serial range of scopes? IF that is true I have yet to record then a serial lower than 3200 for Oigee and all so far are the small power Gnomet 2.5x scopes till about 7500. I also have many blocks of serials missing past 7500 and I think that even though off subject these are for the MG15 sights that top out at about 85,000 but as low as 32,000. just wondering you thoughts on this.

later
vaughn

 

[weatherby2]

Hi my post is dredging this old thread up.
I just picked this one up.
Hopefully someone can help with potential manufacture time.

 

[Loewe]

If you are speaking Vaughns #8 post, the mounted for optics, then probably around February 1919 or after, as CB or Wolfgang, possibly Jon Speed provided the German patent for the mounted version (German patent dated-stamped October 1920). Danzig was not part of Germany by Versailles (possibly-probably earlier by the armistice), but the city population was German and its market would be Germany and Poland - and the market for Poland's civilian market would be meager, so the German patent was probably for the German market. Off-hand I do not have the memory for exact dates or events handy...

** All things considered Danzig and the surrounding territory ceding to Poland (in one degree or another - free city under the league, but nominally under considerable Polish authority) was shortsighted and foolish, even by Versailles standards, but theoretically arguments existed on both courses... in absolute terms Poland had the better-longer historic claim to Danzig and the corridor, but the region had a long held title by Germany (large German population for a couple hundred years - most importantly a thoroughly German character by 1918, hell Schopenhauer was born in Danzig and Kant in Konigsberg and the Schopenhauer title alone is enough to make Danzig German, - probably the most cynical and brilliant man of his age- the man is hilarious in his cynicism! Probably my favorite German, though Goethe and Fredrick II were the greatest Germans in modern history...) and Poland was in no position to hold its territorial claims to half of what she wanted, especially in the corridor and its extensive areas in the east (historically Poles had considerable historical claims in east and west but between a resurgent Germany and Russia -a ruthless Stalin led Russia most especially) she had zero chance to hold those borders, especially how grasping she was to her smaller neighbors (Poland's only real chance was holding strong alliances to the smaller states around her, and she had adversarial relations with the two most important, Lithuania and the Czech, and contentious with the rest...)

 

[weatherby2]

Thank you Sir
I picked up a Danzig sporting rifle serial # 08 that still has its mounts and scope but my pictures were to large.

 

[weatherby2]

 

[Loewe]

These .22 optic mounted rifles are fairly rare, if actual serial number 8 it would be a new low (by far), generally higher serials are opptic based, earlier standard, - the lowest known is the high 500's, most after are bases added. These range (known to me) to 1586. Probably higher are known by others, as while Danzig is a significant interest of mine, these postwar commercial variants are incidental to my interests.

** from my observations these run pretty strong through the mid-500's, then skip to the 900's with none in-between (at all) then a good batch through 1586, many of which have bases, optics are rarely seen.

Anyway, if serial number 8 it is an interesting little rifle!

 

[weatherby2]

It is indeed #08 marked on the barrel, the reciever, and rings.

Thanks again
Unfortunately most of my pictures say too large to post here.

 

[Dradzk]

It is indeed #08 marked on the barrel, the reciever, and rings.

Thanks again
Unfortunately most of my pictures say too large to post here.

You can use Microsoft Word to compress pictures, instructions and on the internet. Alternatively you can use a photo site such as Imgur and post a link to the album you create.

 

[weatherby2]

Thanks
everything is just on my phone.
I think I figured it out.
Test picture......hopefully