German scopes question

[Ratnik]

During research of the documents, related to Soviet sniper programme, I came across some messaging between Soviets and Germans in the late 1920's. It's not a secret that Soviets do not had the experience in rifle scopes production, so they searched for suitable model abroad, and documents contain information that one of the main goals was to learn more about production processes at foreign factories to set up their own production.
Few orders were placed at German factories - Zeiss and Busch.
In both cases, Soviets requested scopes with windage adjustments. In 1926 Zeiss responded that scope (Zielvier) with windage adjustment will cost approximately 50% than regular scope, but they managed to produce real scope with windage settings only in early 1930' . Also Zeiss offered to use windage setting at the mount instead of the scope adjustment.
Busch also responded that such model is non stadard, and windage adjustment was not not used at their scopes, however there were some tries in the past, but windage adjustment was considered useless because of volatile wind conditions in Germany (according to the letter). So to implement soviet order, both factories designed new scope modification. Busch updated their Visar №5 model, and created in 1929-1930 one variation with rings adjustments (Soviet PT scope was based on it) and one with two turrets (Soviet PE scope was based on it), Zeiss created GZ4x model based at Zielvier scope.
So, can anybody provide more details, did Germans had scopes with windage adjustments before soviet orders (even trial variations), or it is safe to assume that Soviets were the first who decided to use windage settings in the rifle scope? In any case, I think it is possible to say at PE mod.1931 scope is the first mass produced scope with windage settings, even considering it is based at modified at Soviet request Visar №5 scope.
Also, regarding the document that I recently I found and posted here
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?16454-ZF41-Study&p=274391&viewfull=1#post274391
Anybody have any information about German long eye relief scopes, that are earlier than soviet order? I mean classic scopes, there was earlier German long eye relief device, but it is not a classic construction scope
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=207a9XIoN0M



Soviet order Visar №5 scope with rings adjustments

Soviet order Visar №5 scope with turrets

Soviet order Visar №5 scope and early soviet PE scopes

Soviet order Zeiss GZ4x scope, early pattern

Soviet order Zeiss GZ4x scope, late pattern

 

[flynaked]

Very cool information thanks for posting here! As to your LER scope question, I have often wondered about them as well, the only one I have seen is the pre WW1 Voigtländer shown in John Speed’s book, I would like
to find out about their development as well.

 

[Ratnik]

Very cool information thanks for posting here! As to your LER scope question, I have often wondered about them as well, the only one I have seen is the pre WW1 Voigtländer shown in John Speed’s book, I would like
to find out about their development as well.

Thank you! that's the info I was looking for, so obviously there was an earlier model. But seems Busch factory was not familiar with that model judging from their letter to Soviets in January 1930

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?16454-ZF41-Study&p=274391&viewfull=1#post274391

"Zur Frage des erweiterten Augenabstandes von 25 cm möchten wir folge des mitteilen :
An sich ist die Durchführung eines auf 25 cm erweiterten Augenabstandes sowohl optisch als auch konstruktiv technisch erfüllbar, doch bedeutet die konstruktive Ausführung eine vollkommene Umrechnung und Umkonstruktion in optischer und technischer Beziehung. Die Zielfernrohre würden wesentlich von den sonst gebräuchlichen Typen abweichen, auch würde der obengenannte Preis durch einen erweiterten Augenabstand naturgenäss eine starke Beeinflussung erfahren, und ferner würden die Liefertermine wesentlich länger, voraussichtlich um etwa 3-4 Monate sein müssen.
Allgemein möchten wir noch erwähnen, dass wir uns von einem erweiterten Augenabstand keine wesentlichen Vorteile versprechen, sondern dass lach unserer Ansicht diese Einrichtung sehr grosse Nachteile hat. Das Gesichtsfeld würde weniger als ein Drittel des Jetzigen sein, und man würde nicht die Möglichkeit haben, das Abkommen um soviel zu verstellen wie es bei den aus der Schusstafel der Abnahmebedingungen hervergenenden Entfernungen notwendig ist. Ausserdem würde dem Auge durch den grossen Abstand erheblich mehr Nebenlicht zugeführt, was eine Erschwerung der Orientierung des Auges und cor Erfassung des Zieles mit sich bringen würde."

 

[Absolut]

Zur Frage des erweiterten Augenabstandes von 25 cm möchten wir folge des mitteilen :
An sich ist die Durchführung eines auf 25 cm erweiterten Augenabstandes sowohl optisch als auch konstruktiv technisch erfüllbar, doch bedeutet die konstruktive Ausführung eine vollkommene Umrechnung und Umkonstruktion in optischer und technischer Beziehung. Die Zielfernrohre würden wesentlich von den sonst gebräuchlichen Typen abweichen, auch würde der obengenannte Preis durch einen erweiterten Augenabstand naturgenäss eine starke Beeinflussung erfahren, und ferner würden die Liefertermine wesentlich länger, voraussichtlich um etwa 3-4 Monate sein müssen.
Allgemein möchten wir noch erwähnen, dass wir uns von einem erweiterten Augenabstand keine wesentlichen Vorteile versprechen, sondern dass lach unserer Ansicht diese Einrichtung sehr grosse Nachteile hat. Das Gesichtsfeld würde weniger als ein Drittel des Jetzigen sein, und man würde nicht die Möglichkeit haben, das Abkommen um soviel zu verstellen wie es bei den aus der Schusstafel der Abnahmebedingungen hervergenenden Entfernungen notwendig ist. Ausserdem würde dem Auge durch den grossen Abstand erheblich mehr Nebenlicht zugeführt, was eine Erschwerung der Orientierung des Auges und cor Erfassung des Zieles mit sich bringen würde."

First, for those who do not speak German, above would [roughly] translate to

Regarding the question to the enlarged Eye Distance of 25 cm we want to inform you as follows:
Generally an enlarged to 25 cm eye distance is optically and technically possible, but it also means that the construction itself has to be newly calculated as well as re-designed in optical and technical aspects. The scopes would differ essentially from what currently is common, also the above mentioned price would be massively impacted upon due to the enlarged eye distance, and finally the delivery time would be hugely enlarged, approx. 3-4 months.
Generally we want to mention that we do not see any benefit from an enlarged eye distance, but according to our opinion this has huge disadvantages. The field of view would be less than one third of the current, as well as you would not have the possibility to adjust the reticle enough per the current regulations given. Additionally an eye would get additional light, what makes orientiation and getting on target much harder.

Second, I currently cannot think of a German scope with lateral adjustment prior to the ZF4 (and the few trials scopes). Most of the German lateral adjustment was solved within the scope mount. The Soviets however were not the first to introduce lateral adjustment since the US has had this in nearly all of their scopes. Already the Warner & Swasey Musket Sight Model of 1908 (and the later 1913 Model too) had lateral adjustment, as did the Winchester A5 telescope. Both of these scopes were used in WWI. The British also had lateral adjustment in their scopes, as did the French.

My Finnish G.Z. 4x of which 25 were purchased and mounted on M/28 rifles (and designated M/33 sniper rifles) has a 47.XXX serial number, so higher than the Russian G.Z. 4x scopes, but also pretty close. So they must had been made around the same time. Whether the Zeiss design was based upon a Finnish or a Soviet request, you'll know better.

Regarding the eye distance: of the French WWI APX scopes two patterns were made with different eye distance, mainly a result of the different mount patterns. But the difference is not that much, comparing it with ZF41 standards.

But when it comes to German standards with long eye distance, think of the Zeiss Glasvisier 16, the bifocal scope with 2.5 manification which was clamped on the tangent rear sight of the Gewehr 98. This would basically be the same principle used for the ZF41.

 

[Absolut]

Very cool information thanks for posting here! As to your LER scope question, I have often wondered about them as well, the only one I have seen is the pre WW1 Voigtländer shown in John Speed’s book, I would like
to find out about their development as well.

Been some time, but had the chance to buy one of those Long Eye Relief Voigtländer scopes. Based on a period pic that @Amberg had shown me I believe these date to WWI period. Bad on it, it has a damage on ocular ring, seems someone nearly torn off the rear portion. Cool though, it came with a wooden carrying box which also contains an adjustment key. Note the rear scope base is also with it.

It btw came with a Kahles S.F. scope, a really small scope (approx. length of a ZF41, just a little bit larger in diameter) which is also a Long Eye Relief - and has normal adjustment knobs for lateral and side adjustment. Someone polished it, possibly to remount it, what obviously had not happened. I'll check with Kahles, but the logo and making IMHO indicates interwar period. Serial is 25.452, so quite high - I though expect similar to Zeiss that all Kahles scope models were made in the same serial block (so next scope could had been a Mignon or Telorar or H/4x60, ...).

 

[flynaked]

That’s a really neat pair of scopes Georg, I haven’t seen either, I really like them!

 

[Amberg]

Based on a period pic that @Amberg had shown me ......

My photo is not secret.
Since I have the photo and the negative, it is certainly not a photoshop job.

Somewhere in the collection I have a Voigtländer LER scope as shown in #2. I'll dig it out over the weekend and post some photos.
There is a book on rifle scopes written by Carl Leiss, who worked for the R. Fuess company. If I'm not mistaken, that covers pre WWI LER scopes too. I'll dig that one out too.

edit:
PS: for those who speak German, the 3rd edition (1920) of the Carl Leiss book is available as reprint.

Das Zielfernrohr seine Einrichtung und Anwendung : Carl Leiss: Amazon.de: Bücher

Das Zielfernrohr seine Einrichtung und Anwendung | Carl Leiss | ISBN: 9783966820394 | Kostenloser Versand für alle Bücher mit Versand und Verkauf duch Amazon.

www.amazon.de

I only have the 1913 and 1916 prints.

 

[Amberg]

there was earlier German long eye relief device, but it is not a classic construction scope

Do not forget the Leitz Glasvisier.
Photo shows a prototype with no serial#

 

[Dave Roberts]

Do not forget the Leitz Glasvisier.
Photo shows a prototype with no serial#View attachment 313469

Wolfgang , the Mounting bracket appears as if it is made to attach around the Barrel and held in place by clamping it down with wing nut , is this correct??
Very simple way to attach it to a rifle but it does not seem very practical or stable . I know you mentioned it was prototype . Do you know if any of this type were ever fielded ??

 

[Amberg]

Dave,
the bracket fits to the rear sight base. Similar to the Zeiss Glasvisier, but simpler.
Somewhere I have the patent papers for it. But where ....??!
I don't hink it was ever fielded in larger numbers. But who knows.

I took a quick look through the 1916 edition of the Carl Leiss book. The author only explains the disadvantages of LER scopes. Nothing about makers ..... or any other details.
He also developed a windage adjustment for scopes using a sliding lens adjusted with screws on the side of the tube.

 

[Amberg]

The Voigtländer as shown in #2
The reticle is a horizontal line with a dot in the center.

 

[flynaked]

Thanks for the pictures Wolfgang, nice to see one in detail. Here’s one mounted on a Haenel owned by Axel E.

 

[Amberg]

Some shots from the 1916 edition of "Das Zielfernrohr" by Carl Leiss.

The windage adjustment as developed by the author.


Two piece scope for semi auto rifles.
A similar scope/device was developed for Mod.88 rifles.


Spotlight on a Fuess 5x scope.
Usable up to a distance of approx. 70 meters.

 

[flynaked]

There’s another neat add for the Scheinwerfer from Fuess but I can’t remember where it’s at. Here’s another neat optic addition from Gerdes.

 

[Amberg]

It is very interesting that Scheinwerfer/night sights for pistols and for higher distances were sold only to government agencies.

Decades ago there was a Fuess Scheinwerfer for sale at a local gun/militaria show. Out of sheer ignorance / stupidity I did not buy it.

 

[Amberg]

....... the Mounting bracket appears as if it is made to attach .....

The patent drawings for the Leitz scope, dated May 1916
The mount required a high-precision machining of the rear sight base. ("Gl.V." marked rear sights)


BTW: The patent documents for the Zeiss Glasvisier 1916 are dated March 1915

 

[Dave Roberts]

Thanks Wolfgang , for sharing the patent drawings . Interesting to see these drawings , I also recall you showing me the Leitz Glasvisier. from Your collection on one my or more of my visits with You at the Farm . Have to say those were some VERY enjoyable times for me . Best Regards my Friend

 

[kentomon]

Great information here! Thank you all for sharing!
I had been wondering from where the idea of LER scope of ZF41 came. I have never thought it had such a history. I would like to know more about it.
Since the LER scopes are not suitable for long range precise shooting (pure sniping), I have been thinking the intention of LER introduced as ZF41 was to gain the ability to fire efficiently against small targets in relatively closer combat distance. That is why the German Army (at least some authorities) primarily intended to mount them on the Selbstladegewehr and designated them as ZF40, much before the G41s were available. However, the actual mass-production of ZF40s only began together with the delayed introduction of G41s, when the ZF41s were now Type2-3 and the low power LER scope was no longer demanded.
So, what were the usage and their advantages of LER scopes as civilian scopes or on bolt action rifles? I cannot see the merits of them as targeting or hunting scopes. Is it safe to say that is why they ended up unsuccessfully or were there any advantages of them except its compactness and clearance for action?

 

[Absolut]

Two piece scope for semi auto rifles.
A similar scope/device was developed for Mod.88 rifles.
View attachment 313567

Missed to see this earlier, thanks for posting it! Actually that is kind of a copy of the British Magnifying Glasses where a rear lense was attached either to the receiver or the rear sight, and another one to the front sight/front end of barrel which predates this system.

So, what were the usage and their advantages of LER scopes as civilian scopes or on bolt action rifles? I cannot see the merits of them as targeting or hunting scopes. Is it safe to say that is why they ended up unsuccessfully or were there any advantages of them except its compactness and clearance for action?

Note that LER scopes are most often combined with low magnification. That is for some particular reason - they are made that you still can use your eyesight to see everything else around you, maybe even leaving both eyes open. This works best with low magnification. Jeff Cooper even pulled that concept with the Steyr Scout rifle again.

With the German ZF41 I fully concur that it was originally designed for the G.41(W), for the rifle being obsolete soon therefore just another useage was found. The ZF43(B) is the intermediate piece of ZF41 to ZF4.

 

[biggymu]

“they are made that you still can use your eyesight to see everything else around you, maybe even leaving both eyes open. This works best with low magnification”

This has been carried over to the US ACOG scopes as well.