Early Luftwaffe DAK rig
- Thread starter BlessedFallout
- Start date
I collect web (tropical) frogs.
BlessedFallout
Active member
Hello Slash,
I recently purchased a bayonet set with what I know is a late war “ersatz” webbed frog. I posted in on Facebook and 75% of people who commented immediately shot it down.
Most of these guys claimed webbed frogs were not even produced after African campaign ended, which is total bollocks.
Do you mind if I post it? Maybe you could give me your expert opinion on the subject.
Personally, I think it stands a chance.
I only have 2 photos of it, it is suppose to arrive on Wednesday, then I will take some better photos.
Attachments
Nice blue belt and frog!!
luftpirate
Well-known member
Sorry, that is a bad repro. Basically everything is wrong with it. Best to start a new thread and not hijack this one.
BlessedFallout
Active member
I’m not hijacking anything, the original post is mine. Thank you for your help. Could you tell me what exactly do you think is wrong with this frog? I will await Slash’s opinion too. There are many late war variants of webbed frogs, some of these variants have the same weave pattern and construction. I will make a separate thread on it soon.
Thank you
BlessedFallout
Active member
Hello Grimlin13,
Thank you for a warm welcome.
I will post photos of this bayonet tomorrow, it’s a nice and clean G code, 1935 (at least I think it’s nice ), we will see
The photos of the aluftwaffe DAK rig are edited because I posted them on Facebook first few days ago, and we both know what policies they have…
I’m glad you like the set.
Thank you
Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting items from your collection. I have moved this post to the Bayonets and Accessories subforum. Your blue web set is outstanding. Would like to see some good pics of the reverse of the frog. Are there any maker's marks/stamps?
The frog in post #3 is quite interesting. Would very much like to see detailed pics of the piece once you have it in hand. What you have posted thus far is not enough to render a fair evaluation as far as originality. Certainly not enough detail presented to declare the frog original or reproduction at this point. As you have already noted, any assertion that "webbed frogs were not even produced after (the) African campaign" is absolutely ridiculous. Webbed frogs were manufactured in numerous forms until the very end of the war. Including examples made from loose woven cellulose type material similar to your piece. There are things that I like, even at first glance such as the style of construction, use of different materials, stitching, etc. Other areas are less convincing such as the odd metal stud and construction of the retaining strap. Regardless, detailed photos are needed front, back, sides, top, bottom, pouch (including inside if possible), retention strap front and back with attention to the stud, securing hole, backing tab, stitching, etc. Even with very detailed images it may come down to only an opinion. Some very strange things were happening late in the war and no one has seen everything. My thoughts only .....
The frog in post #3 is quite interesting. Would very much like to see detailed pics of the piece once you have it in hand. What you have posted thus far is not enough to render a fair evaluation as far as originality. Certainly not enough detail presented to declare the frog original or reproduction at this point. As you have already noted, any assertion that "webbed frogs were not even produced after (the) African campaign" is absolutely ridiculous. Webbed frogs were manufactured in numerous forms until the very end of the war. Including examples made from loose woven cellulose type material similar to your piece. There are things that I like, even at first glance such as the style of construction, use of different materials, stitching, etc. Other areas are less convincing such as the odd metal stud and construction of the retaining strap. Regardless, detailed photos are needed front, back, sides, top, bottom, pouch (including inside if possible), retention strap front and back with attention to the stud, securing hole, backing tab, stitching, etc. Even with very detailed images it may come down to only an opinion. Some very strange things were happening late in the war and no one has seen everything. My thoughts only .....
BlessedFallout
Active member
Thank you very much for your kind words Slash, I appreciate it. It literally took me years to find, complete and save money for this blue webbed rig, im glad you like it.
The frog in sun post is arriving on Friday, so Saturday I will have a set of high quality photos ready and posted, and I would appreciate your opinion on it.
Im sorry I posted this thread in a wrong section (new member), I will pay more attention in the future.
Im looking forward to learn and improve my knowledge in the field of bayonet collecting.
Thank you
Me, too...
The S84/98 T3 Tropical Frog
As an alternative to leather and initially for use in the tropical climate of the Mediterranean, the Germans produced a new pattern of frog made of heavy cotton webbing. These frogs are found in primary colors of olive drab, reed green, a yellow ocher, tan, and indigo blue. However, some are...
www.k98kforum.com
AndyB
Senior Member
Personally i dont have problem with nr.1 even not visible the maker of bayonet and dating, the second one web frog looks strange as mentioned correctly by Slash more info should be provided, personally from material and bolt i would be sceptical, should be added side by side with other normal web frog.
BlessedFallout
Active member
Hello Andy,
Thank you for your opinion.
Slash, he wrote he actually likes this frog but more photos are needed, he didn’t shoot it down.
Also what would you like to compare when you said “normal” frog and the second one posted?
Some Late war frogs have a weave design exactly the same as the one in question.
If you compare “normal” one to late frog of course they will be a difference, you are saying that if a frog doesn’t look like “normal” tropical frog. That means it’s no good, not very accurate way of thinking.
Anyway, thanks again for your help.
Cheers
In regards to the tropical frog in question, the cumulative knowledge (in years) of just the members whom frequent this forum alone, would run into several hundred. This is not to say if we have not seen something, it must not be authentic. However, in comparison to the number of known patterns of German tropical frogs, the OP's example stands alone at this time. There are variations in the type and weave of webbing and/or stitching found on such frogs. Atypical of the frog under discussion are the web reinforcements at the end of the cross-straps. The catch stud is also unique as well. One test which should be conducted is use of a black light on the stitching to see if it glows. This will not occur with 100% cotton stitch as used originally. Something else to consider is reenactors have been a market for reproduction German gear since the 1970s. Such gear subjected to simulated field usage over time, may show the same wear and exposure authentic equipment often does... and may now be close to half a century old! In addition, some items may have been made in very small numbers by one individual and surviving examples rare. Still, until additional information comes to light to help either confirm or refute the legitimacy of the OP's tropical frog, the jury remains out...
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AndyB
Senior Member
Side by side photo of questionable web with presented blue web frog, to see the dimmensions would help here, as i believe the belt pouch is too large here. Same as shape of hole in secure strap, for me is strange the form of ends of this strap, same as the material in not typical used, i would proof a UV light test to confirm a new material or old. As mentioned by PWCo similar knob is never occured here, we should see the lower part of the knob, how is covered and other points. Similar pieces could be real, when it would be found in more as one sample, same as the material of web would be confirmed by captured or german materials.
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BlessedFallout
Active member
The blue frog has been UV tested, no glow.
Also it’s been posted on many forums with hundreds of experts commenting on it, and you are the first one to have some kind of objections to it. Tremendous amount of research has been made before I bought this specific frog, together with consulting known experts in the field.
BlessedFallout
Active member
I totally understand and agree, I just didn’t understand what do you want to prove by posting “normal” tropical frog next to the one in question. More photos are needed which I will provide as soon as I get it, it’s definitely an interesting example, but as of now, I treat is as questionable and potentially post war, until proven otherwise. I like the weave pattern on it, stitching and overall construction, the only thing I don’t like is the stud. But there might be an explanation for it since Germans used whatever they had on hand late in the war, there’s also a possibility that stud was repaired (changed) post war.
I’m a new member here, can you please tell me if Ican I tag people in new threads?
AndyB
Senior Member
You didnt understand what i am saying, or maybe my english is not so good, i sayed nothing wrong with the blue web frog (answer12), but the UV test should be made with the second frog in question and the piece should be photographed side by side with normal well known modell of web frog even possible with the blue one here?. And who were the well known expert on that area?? It would be interesting to see the names of hundreds of them. I am on minimum of 6 or 7 forums last 20 years, but no one presented there this or similar frog in question there?? Gunboard, Wehrmacht Awards, War relic forum, Militaria Fundforum, Blankwaffen forum, etc..
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BlessedFallout
Active member
It looks to me that we misunderstood eachother.
I was talking about the blue frog in an original post, that it’s been posted and vetted by multiple experts, I thought that you are questioning its authenticity, but it looks like you were talking about the frog in comments, the light brown one.
In that case I agree with you, more photos are needed.
I apologize if I came out rude.
