Early 1874 Danzig Gewehr 1871 with oddities

[Loewe]

Need your email as pdf is too large for this site.

 

[Loewe]

I'm not saying that antisemitism wasn't an issue that Loewe had to negotiate - he was, after all, a Jew involved in politics and Prussian high society - but I've never seen solid documentary evidence of it having been a driving factor in business decisions. I'll PM you my email, I'd love to get a copy of that Wall study. I chased any connections between the Judenflinte scandal and the incorporation of DWM and never found a direct link between the two, just the business rationale for restructuring.

edit: to be clear, I'm saying I've never seen evidence of a causal relationship between Ahlwardt and the incorporation of DWM. The claim I saw elsewhere, and which I was chasing, was that DWM was incorporated to obscure the Jewish ownership specifically because of the fallout of the Ahlwardt affair. That is what I've never found anything solid to rest such a strong claim on.

edit 2: I've got a copy of the Gerald Oliven documents and I don't consider the claim that is made there about the split-off being as a result of Ahlwardt to be a definitive one. There isn't much in the way of supporting evidence in there, and the collection as a whole while very interesting is mildly problematic in terms of using it as a source, mostly due to the time and the context that it was written in. If you're talking about the claim that I think you're referencing, it's one that I feel really needs stronger supporting evidence, and that's something I've never been able to dig up.

edit 3: <snip> Probably not the place to get into the weeds with the Oliven collection. I'm happy to discuss if you want to, though.


As an aside, I'm getting the feeling that you're somehow offended or annoyed. I want to emphasize that I wasn't trying to correct or needle at anything. My apologies if I've overstepped, I'm used to approaching this subject in a more academic setting.



I'd also love a copy of this if you're willing to share. I'll PM my address

We disagree and that is quite ok as the world will not care... I sent "my" article which was what I offered; sorry if you thought I meant my database on Loewe as it is too large and hostility is hardly an incentive or grounds for collaboration...

***Oliven is credible in so far as it goes, no need to go into the weeds with me on any subject. I am quite done with you...

 

[Cyrano4747]

We disagree and that is quite ok as the world will not care... I sent "my" article which was what I offered; sorry if you thought I meant my database on Loewe as it is too large and hostility is hardly an incentive or grounds for collaboration...

***Oliven is credible in so far as it goes, no need to go into the weeds with me on any subject. I am quite done with you...

I'm sorry if you feel that I've been hostile, that was not my intent at all. There seems to be some kind of miscommunication here, I'll drop it, but I do feel it is important to emphasize I have not been trying to be hostile at all.

My comment on Oliven isn't accounting his credibility (I'm not arguing that he was lying, had an intent to deceive, etc), so much as it's questioning the use of that single data point. It was written in the 60s-70s (based on the date of the accompanying correspondence, the report itself is undated but implied to be roughly contemporary to the letters), by the son of the person with major involvement, and 80-90 years after the events in question. And Oskar himself would not have been in a senior role at that time in his career, but certainly had access to people who were. That's not to say he's not credible, but there are a lot of very complex issue surrounding using sources that are at that kind of remove, and it ends up being something you need to corroborate. That corroboration is what I've yet been able to find and would love to see if you have access to something that does so.

I'll add that historical research, archival work, and source corroboration is something I have prior professional experience in. If I seem to be taking a more removed and skeptical approach to the Oliven folio and that is what has offended you, that could be why.

Again, apologies if I've offended. It has not been my intention at all, and I have not been trying to be hostile.

 

[Loewe]

I took your approach as adversarial (not necessarily hostile) and thought it rather unique in my dealings with other researchers (I think you are knowledgeable and beneficial to the forum, very much so, however in my experience with John Wall, CB, PeterK, Ken Huddle, Joe Steen, Mauserbill and many others I rarely, if ever, considered an adversarial approach and relied upon questions rather than contradiction and intentional disagreement to further discussion - I suspect trust is better garnered by respectful questions than pushing being right...), but it has the benefit of being "original".

As I said I feel you are beneficial to the forum, more than most, however I do not seek adversarial discussions between researchers-collectors and I took your comments counterproductive and aggravating in tone as I normally expect courtesy and questions, rather than contradiction, when discussions between "researchers" as I once took you for one or at least becoming. (in my mind there is a distinction between a researcher and collector, the former I take far more serious and try to be respectful, - anyone with money and an interest can be a collector... the best are both)

**Ican be very opinionated or dogmatic in politics and Liberal ideology however I expect some courtesy and between collectors I respect.

 

[Loewe]

Oliven manuscript was not a significant aspect of our disagreement, it is superficial but generally correspond with facts as far as I understand them. The scale and scope of Loewe's enterprises and vastness demanded vast capital resources. Rifles and small arms were the least of the issue or necessity for massive capital resources, especially its partnerships with US collaborations-ventures.

 

[yeeyee123]

Well, a peer to my rifle was recently auctioned off and it has the same oddities, perhaps this was just how early Danzig rifles were serialized. It's the same year, with the same weird serial location on the bands with the same dot suffix. Waited for the auction to end and these are ofc not my images. Hopefully the winner of the rifle makes a dedicated post here, would love to see the proofs under the barrel.

 

[Loewe]

It is an interesting rifle, at least so far as the pictures go... as trends goes, too few to develop much of a foundation to rest opinions upon. (25 rifles across a 10 year span is little to base arguments upon!)

We need far more examples, not only Danzig, to develop a suitable database for credible theories, what we currently have enough to say rough estimations of production ranges and had not CB inspired the trends research this little we have wouldn't exist (on a public forum, I am sure others have done similar work they keep private, - I can say with certainty we didn't invent trends research, we were just one of the first to make public efforts others could contribute to.