Dot 1945 coded receivers.

[jh-SS1944]

hello.
I'm fully aware that dot 45 coded receivers are listed as post war assembled (or even made).
any explanation on these ?

if made during the war , why were they not used during the war?
If post war made, why bother with a "dot 45 " code ? the roll stamp seems a waste of money to make, Specially if you already own the swp 45 roll stamp dies.

jeff H.

 

[Pisgah]

I believe that the dot 1945 marked receivers were left over dot 1944 receivers that had the last 4 removed and replaced with a 5. I do not know why they bothered with this. They applied large rampant lions to some of them postwar also. I don't know if they actually manufactured any new receivers postwar or just remarked surplus wartime receivers.

 

[mike webb]

Wartime production at Brno in Czechoslovakia in 1945 were coded SWP45. I think the Czechs used up older DOT marked receivers in post war production maybe actions that were rejected by German inspectors for some reason or they were already stamped DOT and could not be used. The DOT code was discontinued after DOT44 in K98's produced for German use. The other Czech facility at Bysterika continued to use DOU code through 1945 until wars end.

 

[mrfarb]

Nobody knows for sure, but I have my own theory. I think that at least some of the dot 1945 receivers were marked that was during the war. It's possible the dot 45 code receivers were marked that way in anticipation of the code change in 45, but with the new swp code change the receivers were mothballed. None were ever used in normal German production.

A few clues lead me down this line of thinking. First, I have seen numerous dot45 coded receivers with 1 e/63 inspection on the right rail. This indicates to me that the receiver is at least wartime- granted it could indicate direct postwar use of e/63 inspection at Brünn but I highly doubt it. It could also be blank receivers roll marked later, but I highly doubt that as well- still, can't be ruled out.

Second, MG34's produced by Brünn for the Germans were never marked swp45, but rather were marked dot45, the code never changed. I know the MG34 was continued postwar with the same code, but as far as I know there are legitimate wartime accepted MG34's with dot45 codes.

Anyway, this scenario has happened at Brünn before - during the G33/40 program the code was 945 40 and changed to dot 41, but you see 945 1941 code receivers which technically shouldn't exist. These receivers were marked "wrong" but not scrapped, they were put into the depot repair system instead of being used on production.

 

[mauser99]

Both observations stand on their own merit and make sense. Going off the example farb posted you can clearly see the 5 was added. So whether that makes Pishga's point more valid or not I'm not sure. Brunn did not put into the production the 945/41 rec. and I guess at that point of the war they could afford to do so.
In 1945 I have my doubts. They were using large amounts of left over and rejected parts So why be so picky about the code and date used ? Just a thought. And a topic for great discussion.

 

[mrfarb]

In 1945 I have my doubts. They were using large amounts of left over and rejected parts So why be so picky about the code and date used ? Just a thought. And a topic for great discussion.

I would tend to agree with you but your assumption is that Brünn had shortages of receivers, this wasn't the case. Brünn had plenty left after the war even, enough to build a ton or rifles with (swp45/dou45 marked postwar guns). I think the lion marked ones are truly postwar produced.

There was a short time Brünn used recycled receivers, but it wasn't due to shortages at Brünn from what I have seen.

 

[mauser99]

I think the latest I have see was the h block do you agree ?

 

[mrfarb]

From what I recall, yes. But, did the Czechs continue from f block of dou45? Did they go to H and then start over? I don't think anyone has really studied these like German production.

I have passing interest in them- the dot45 marked ones usually have earlier features, like more German marked parts and even dou style semi-Kriegsmodell stocks. But were they rebuilt? Lots of questions.

 

[mauser99]

Im talking about dot/swp/ Cz lion type receivers. I assumed and I could be wrong that the last war time gun was in the 5 digit a block then production just continued to the h block where it ended.

 

[mrfarb]

Here's my thought - Brünn I (swp) used 5 digit, Brünn II used 4 digit serials. Postwar use 4 digit serials - I always thought the production was continued at the dou factory instead of the swp factory. Numbering patterns suggest that - maybe someone should study these a little closer.

 

[mauser99]

correct.. but, brunn1 only used the 5 digit for 2 blocks so maybe they went back to 4 digit blocks ? just a thought..

 

[jh-SS1944]

Wow some very good responses , from a lot of people !! (good I joined the site).

I own a dot 1945 M.G. 34, and for a long time ,many did not think original war time .

I thought dou 45 rifles just picked up where it left off.... I own a K block one.
plus I had read of the 2 plants , only one continued with weapon production, the other revamped to make something else "for the state". so both receivers assembled in one location.

Is it possible... that they made these during the war and they found a defect that would was to time consuming to fix ? sabotage, not heat treated right , milled wrong ???

lets be real, the world is collapsing around you, your on the losing side, but, every rifle that gets "military accepted" , your going to get paid for. toss those receivers aside, don't waste the time & money, And just keep pumping rifles out the door.

what should be done , round up ever dot 45 & post war dou 45 rifle ,and convince Every reenactor to trade in the k98k they currently own for one of these.

thanks for the good theories ! jeff H.

 

[mike webb]

The acceptance people at the Czech facilities were German military as far as I know and even at the end would not let substandard parts receive WaA. Finish was one thing, dimensions and functionality was another. Obviously you haven't worked with any Germans as I have. To a man they were sticklers for details and proper procedures(proper German procedures). I worked in a large shipyard on a military naval construction contract and heard them almost daily say, "BUT ZIS IS NOT CORRECT!!" in a thick German accent.

 

[M1903A3]

Great discussion here! I find the late Dot and Dou rifles fascinating too, this is all good food for thought. It certainly must have been hectic at Brunn I and II with the Russians bearing down on them.

 

[vaughn99]

Hello,

I collect the so called "Winter 98" observations. after the war they started over with serial 1 NO letter block. they used Scrubbed receivers, Rampant Lion Old stock, SWP45, DOU45, DOT45, DOT44. the Highest DOT45 I have is k (K) block. they just took the next receiver from the pile and put it together. so far ALL NO letter block rifles are left over war time receivers that were never finished as rifles. So far the highest is the t (T) block and high enough to lead to a v (V) block but none observed yet. they changed the markings over time and wartime receiver surplus ran out and new receivers made till about 1950 when they came out with the TGF marked receivers and the proof system of them is very evident of the rifles leading up to the TGF rifles which are a 1 time lot of about 20,000 rifles and started over again at serial 1.

later
vaughn

 

[jh-SS1944]

Vaughn ,thank you for your information.
any one have a clue how "common" a dot 45 coded rifle is ?
jeff

 

[AngeloF]

Hello,

nearly 10 years after this thread has started, i would like to refire it again!

Here is my dot45 - as can be seen clearly, the 5 is a bit lower than the 4, so i assume it is a leftover dot1944 receiver with the 4 removed and the 5 stamped in again.

Also it has seen some action in Israel as you can see by the star stamped in. They also renumbered the gun, it was originally in the a-block. Must be an early production right after war ended.

They also crossed out the WaA proofmarks on the left side but they forgot one on the top of the receiver!

Let me know what you think about this one and have fun discussing this interesting topic!

 

[AndyB]

From the last one this 1945 was reworked from dot 1944 stamp die probably, the 1662 a here is a postwar production, the lion was doted out here, 5792 is a refurbishment serial and the rifle was sent to Israel prior 1950.

 

[Stan]

From the last one this 1945 was reworked from dot 1944 stamp die probably, the 1662 a here is a postwar production, the lion was doted out here, 5792 is a refurbishment serial and the rifle was sent to Israel prior 1950.

Andy, do you know if rifle production continued at both factories after the war?

 

[AndyB]

The rifle production continued in plant 1 Brno, by Povazska Bystrica plant II was continued only parts production, that explain existence of dou 45 receivers, logically czech wouldnt that slovak after independent slovak state have directly postwar they own rifle production plant, since 1946 was PB diverted out of ZB and was builded new concern Povazske Strojarne.
dot 1945 in german production could be only short lived, when the dot 1944 by numbers directly overcome to swp45 production in a range. Anyway the switch was done in few tousand. Possible there existed too some samples, but there should be exactly examined as it could be postwar production mixage. The russian that liberated both plants captured a lot of completed rifles, that is the explanation why they are so many with russian rework or DDR rework stamp. I assume russian were not interested in parts so many parts from german not fullended production, remained in plants and were directly continued into czechoslovak postwar production.
The mrfarb piece would be interesting to see for more details, as the date is evidently restamped to 1945, the 5 is not corectly added into die stamp, it was probably reused a dot 1944 stamp, with replacement of last digit. Serial could clear it certainly same as lack of fireproofs etc...