Third Party Press

Does code "bnz 40" exist?

I think this is loosely relevant. I just got this mg34 Kit. When I was first told it was dot 1940 I didn't believe it as I couldn't find anything online. I asked s fellow member to look in the mg34/42 book where he found only one is known to exist, a 945 code which is a cutaway. These also show up on Norwegian inventory records but no one has ever seen one and their existence is sill disputed. dot 1940, never say never!
 

Attachments

  • image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
    194.2 KB · Views: 85
Last edited:
brno 1940

Not to hijack the thread but here are two early 1940 BRNO MG34 barrels. The 14-A is of course the earliest. I do have 945 coded 1940 barrels here somewhere as well, but just posted the 14-A and the dot 40. The dot 40 barrel is for MG # 2177, barrel #3. JH
 

Attachments

  • brno BARRELS 1940.jpg
    brno BARRELS 1940.jpg
    299.8 KB · Views: 47
SDP did do many odd things, many of their early rifles, in this range especially (1940-1942), have characteristics of later rifles. Meaning they were actually finished much later. This is supported by documents Wolfgang and Jon Speed found that SDP was having difficulties getting rifles accepted.

I decided to go back through my database and examine all the rifles around these ranges, some of my earlier comments were not clear and some were incorrect.

1. serialing of both receiver and barrel is consistent through the early bnz/42 first block, there are a couple exceptions in the j & k block (SRO), but both were later assembles, rifles finished in early 1942.

2. right receiver acceptance, the last rifle with full RR acceptance is a bnz/41 j-block, and it is lonely... consistent full RR acceptance (meaning e/77 e/623x3, or e/623x4) seems to end early in the j-block. No rifle has been recorded with full RR acceptance after the 7000-j block of bnz/41.

3. On closer examination, the bnz/41 range ends at 5949 k, the l-blocks on closer examination were actually i-blocks I miss filed. Backbone has a 9724 k as the high rifle, so an L-block probably does exist, but I have not recorded one (one might note that 9724 k is also THE bnz/40, so who knows what Bob Jensen's next highest is?).

That the two known bnz/40 overstrikes have full e/623x4 on the RR, no finals (some i-k bnz/41 have no finals, but most do, latest w/o is 6056 j, an rc, and it is lonely.. all k-blocks have finals and only one RR acceptance) seem to suggest these were made earlier in 1941 or in late 1940. Because by the bnz/41 k-block, actually the bnz/41 j-block, rifles generally start to have only have one RR acceptance and have a final. The later it gets from the bnz/41 j-block on, the more unlikely these are to be bnz/41 k-blocks or l-blocks with these characteristics, and both would be new highs if they are actually bnz/41's.

Anyway, while i still think these deserve a healthy dose of skepticism, I think it is at least plausible and there is at least as good a case these are legit as they are fraudulent. I do agree though that "normally" makers did not overstrike dates on rifles made later (BLM, Gustloff etc..), though these are receivers made "earlier", using the following years receivers pattern. Something like this probably couldn't occur at Mauser, or a privately held firm (such as "Private" property existed in NS Germany... especially at war), though a mismanaged company, owned by the state, loaded up with NS dirtbag opportunists that hold their positions due to influence rather than competence, - sure anything is possible.

I know Steyr did some truly weird and wacky things, but why would they scrub later date actions and restamp them? Makes zero sense.

Unless sabotage meant that some 40 actions were stamped in error with a wrong date, forcing a time and effort log jam to rectify the rifles. Actually kind of a smart saboteur move.
 
Last edited:
I had to double check, but what are the odds that bnz/41 high in Backbone is the same rifle that is also listed as the earliest bnz/40? Which is shown in Backbone? Quite a coincidence...

Didn't think about it until just now, but that would need explaining, - a very careful explanation.
 
Well that is something new, e/607 is Brno II, the Slovakian based facility, and until now i was unaware they made anything under the 14-A code, which is listed in Heidler's. I had no idea Brno II made MG34 barrels... I will have to see if this is on Ken Huddle's MG sheet.

There is a great deal to learn about the Modell98 (G98/98a/98b/98k) looking at peripheral subjects, other small arms. I believe the swj-XE was first linked by looking at other SDP products.

Not to hijack the thread but here are two early 1940 BRNO MG34 barrels. The 14-A is of course the earliest. I do have 945 coded 1940 barrels here somewhere as well, but just posted the 14-A and the dot 40. The dot 40 barrel is for MG # 2177, barrel #3. JH
 
P14-a

P14-A (dou) also made sS 7,9 ball & platz 33 with this code. These boxes are very scarce. I found the 14-A MG34 barrels many years before I found a matching P14-A 7,9 box. I have no idea whether they made other MG34 parts. JH
 

Attachments

  • P14A (1) 001.jpg
    P14A (1) 001.jpg
    295.8 KB · Views: 50
  • P14A (2) 002.jpg
    P14A (2) 002.jpg
    301.1 KB · Views: 46
Very interesting, - have you done any work recording waffenamts? MG barrel codes? (identifying the various makers? marking patterns?)
 
Very interesting, - have you done any work recording waffenamts? MG barrel codes? (identifying the various makers? marking patterns?)
Regretfully no. When these barrels were available many years ago, I was looking for bore condition first for use in my mgs. At the same time, I remember watching as the gunners kits had the leather straps simply cut with box cutters because they did not want to waste time getting the spare bolt out. Times have changed. JH
 
Thanks for responding Haak, they certainly have and not for the better generally.
 
Graf, this was quite an informative read and as always, I am impressed by your research and record keeping. I have nowhere near the depth of records that you have and little to add. The highest bnz 41 I have on file is in the "g" block and I have not seen a bnz 40 until this thread. However, I will pose a hypothetical: suppose Steyr had a contract for "X" rifles in 1940 and they are building out rifles with 660-marked receivers. What if they realized they would run out of 1940-dated receivers before they could finish their target number, but also at the same time they are getting ready for production in 1941? Instead of changing the roll die for the bnz 41 receivers, they just "borrow" what they need for bnz 41 receivers, overstamp the "1" with a "0" and just keep going until they hit their target number for 1940?

In the earlier discussions, the collectors seemed concerned about a clean break point--a point where 660 1940 ended and bnz 40 begins. However, I would think in a factory cranking out rifles that there would not be clean break: I cannot see them halting the line until every last 660 1940 receivers was found and used up. I think they would just add the altered bnz 41 receivers to the inventory and just kept cranking out rifles. You can see this lack of a clean break with some other manufacturers. For example, I have a byf 43 in the "kk" block. Since byf 43 was made in blocks by month, the only explanation is the the byf 43 receiver found its way into the end of 1942 production. There is also a lack of a clean break in Lubecker's 1940 producion. I have a DUV 40 on file in the NLB and one in the (I think) "K" block with a bunch of 237 receivers in between.
 
Last edited:
As stated earlier, 660/1940's were not all made in 1940, many lingered on before final acceptance in 1941, - SDP had significant difficulties getting rifles accepted. There was no clean break, probably at none of the makers and assembler, least of all SDP, Gustloff-Weimar & BLM. Today as then, state run operations, doing ANYTHING, are incompetent, profit and efficiency is irrelevant to politicians and bureaucrats, - only their little fiefdom and petty power, and raw greed (with no accountability, responsibility- or productivity) matter to them. While BLM was a private concern, its owner was extremely well connected, late to the party, he joined in 1937 along with the Sauer's, who by then you had better if you liked to retain your position & property. He had an wealthy American wife, Swiss connections and lived in Switzerland as much as Germany. He was an expert opportunist, rag to riches self-made man who played the "party" game as well as anyone; for him to travel freely and embezzle the money he is accused of, without consequences (no country had stronger currency controls than NS Germany. - and all did have strict controls during the war), shows his connections and influence. He seems to have had a cozy relationship with Gustloff-Werke and some say Göring (Reichswerke, which owned SDP in this time frame).

Anyway, I suspect these might be real, but I doubt they were done to fill a contract, which surely they were behind on. I suspect a great many 660/40's were actually made in 1941, and bnz/41's made in 1942, this is a fact due to a comparison with company production totals and known ranges. The trends (characteristics) show this with discrepancies within certain ranges, which show rifles with characteristics of later rifles. Most probably, assuming these are legitimate, they were introduced as a mistake, they are spread across three blocks afterall, not all in the last block or grouped together. One must also consider the nature of the company, rifles were not the main operation for the concern, I suspect small arms received only a small amount of resources, increasingly so as the company moved into airframes, tanks, and expansion of its important operations, ball bearings and vehicles.

Of course they could intermingle as they do because most of the k-n blocks were made in 1941 and they just got mixed in the improper ranges (and corrected because they were in the 660/40 ranges)? Hard to say, but until we see a "real" one, with supporting components there is no way to tell. As ScottB use to say, more or less, a rifle must be judged in its entirety, the components matter. This is especially true with oddballs and rifles that are abnormal.
 
Last edited:
Great discussion. Since I'm currently writing that chapter, I have some interest in this discussion. I personally think these are real, but it just makes zero sense as to why and I have decided that in the book the code will be presented as "open for discussion" for lack of a better term.

There was a code change from 660 to bnz at the break there in 1940, so it's possible that bnz41 marked receivers were available for assembly in 1940 and the overstamp was made to prevent confusion there- which begs the question why, since it's obvious that 1940 dated guns were made well into 41. As with many things at Steyr, it could just be mismanagement and overwhelming confusion as to what was to be done.

To me, the code changes in the MG section can be helpful, but for whatever reason early adoption in MG production was easier. They even adopted the 2 letter date codes as early as 43, where K98k production didn't do it until 45.
 
Very interesting thread! I went back to my copy of BBOTW and it seems like just a matter of fact entry on his data page for it. Is there any possibility SDP was trying to make it look for the record like more rifles were actually produced/accepted in 1940 than was actually the case? I agree, it seems to make no sense otherwise to retro-date a 41 receiver to 40 unless to "fool" somebody then...or now.
 
Awesome example of a rare bnz 40 K98k! Can you read the original serial number more clearly for us?
 
I don't own the rifle and I won't buy it as the rifle is a sporterized K98 used postwar buy the Norwegian army and rechambered in .30-06. As far as I can tell the original german serial number is 1319 l, L-block. I don't want to ask the seller for more pictures as I have no intention of buying the rifle. The last picture I got is this of the right side of the receiver.
 

Attachments

  • 311635199_10160278019060406_7908558704748144188_n.jpeg
    311635199_10160278019060406_7908558704748144188_n.jpeg
    339.3 KB · Views: 37
Last edited:
If you aren’t buying it, will you let us know where it is? More pictures of this gun could be helpful, despite its sad state.
 

Military Rifle Journal
Back
Top