Correct ammo for Czech barreled Gew. 88

[runner]

A lot of of Gew. 88s ended up in South America and many were rebarreled with Czech made replacement barrels. For whatever reason
these barrels were not made to German military specs, instead having a smaller (.308 x .312 , I think) bore. I don’t know what countries used these, but was there a special cartridge designed for them? The German, or it’s equivalent, S or Ss round would seem to be very dangerous in these modified rifles.

 

[Fal Grunt]

Interesting that you should bring this topic up. I've wondered the same thing.

I only have one example, a steyr built rifle, with a czech barrel. The bore slugs .306/.318. It closes on a GO, and does not close on a NOGO, but will NOT chamber any make of 8mm that I have. Turk, Yugo, German, FN, Romanian, PPU, and a few headstamps I'm not sure what they are.

So in reality.... at least with my example. You couldn't shoot an S or Ss round through them with out pounding the bolt handle closed to force the bullet back into the case. So what did these countries use for ammunition?

As far as dangerous goes. I'm very curious just HOW dangerous. What is the pressure difference shooting a .323 bullet through a .318 vs a factory .318? Problem is, I don't have any factory .318, just my reloads. So I guess I'll have to work up some reloads in .318 shoot those for a pressure basis, and then shoot the same loads, albeit with deeper seated bullets, which in and of itself will change the pressure. It's a conundrum. I'll have to think on it. The .005" difference isn't a big deal in the German world, as I have slugged 8mm barrels as SMALL as .315 groove diameter. I have a factory rifle that shoots .375 bullets through a .370 groove diameter.

I have another factory rifle that is either an excessively loose 9mm, or a really tight 9.3. I tend to think a really tight 9.3.

I digress, but you have to wonder, what DID they shoot through these rifles?

 

[Stan]

There is a quite extensive thread on gunboards forum Mannlicher stickies regarding Gew 88 bore sizes and ammo. A lot of conflicting info to sort out there, but overall it is recommended to slug the bore and go with a proper sized bullet. I do recall some mention there of Czech replacement barrels, but not sure how much detail is given.

 

[Fal Grunt]

I've read through that thread a time or two, but it doesn't have much information regarding what ammo was originally used. I've slugged my bore as mentioned, but am curious, what did "they" shoot? Some references are to Ecuador, but again, I have never been able to find the source of this.

A few comments regarding this topic from that thread:

"They were not made to use any of the German ammo, the Czech G-88 ammo has a .316 dia bullet and is loaded to a much shorter lenght. Shooting them is a whole different story. mag"

"The South American import G-88's still show the "S" stamp, but many have Czech barrels that are as small as .306- .316. People are still being told they can shoot .323 bullets in those. So that "S" means nothing now. The Czech barrels are the same size as German civilian barrels, too small for the .3188 dia military ammo. The German civilian ammo has a .316 dai bullet , as does the Czech military ammo. So a .318 bullet is not correct for most Czech barrels either."

Scarlata has a picture on page 144 of "Czech manufactured Patronen 88 made in 1933" Possibly this ammo could be specifically made for these barrels?

 

[ernie8]

The Czech ammo was made for these barrels . It is a .3158 dia bullet loaded to a shorter OCL than the original P-88 ammo . The CZ ammo is made to the same specs as early German civilian ammo . It is NOT Czech manufactured P-88 ammo , wrong as usual . Since the CZ ammo is getting hard to find , and Early German civilian ammo is even harder to find , the simple answer is shoot 7.7mm Jap . You must handload it . Size the 8x57mm cases in a 7.7x58mm die to fit the rifle . Use the Hornady .312 174 rn bullet . Seat in a 7.7mm die . Use a low velocity ] 1900 fps ish ] load with a fast rifle powder [ like SR-4759 ] . The long .312 bullet will ride the .306 lands enough to stay straight and spin . That has been the best answer I have found yet .

 

[ernie8]

As far as what is dangerous , there are many factors to look at . Bullet construction . How much bearing surface ? How thick and hard is the jacket , the core ? The shorter leade will make the case seem smaller and raise pressures . It is where the bullet hits the rifling in the throat , not the bullet depth in the case that raises pressures . It is the bore [ land ] size that is the problem . It is really hard to push a .323 bullet down a .306 bore . Use the average of the land and groove, plus rifling width to find the bore AREA . That is important . About .002 oversized with a soft average bullet will gain about 200 fps . They made .3158 dia bullets for a reason . On a side note I have not been able to find out just why the Czechs used civilian size barrels and ammo . They were given it from Germany , Austria ??? They made normal size barrels for the Turks . Why different for the rifles that went to South America ?

 

[runner]

Ernie,
I was hoping you would add your expertise to this discussion.
I have enough parts to assemble 2 or 3 Gew88s with Czech barrels. I am going to advertise them as non shooting wall hangers only.

 

[Fal Grunt]

Runner,

I’d be interested in those parts before you put them together.

Ernie, thanks, that’s interesting information. I’ll be sure to record the pressure differences i just have to come up with a baseline. I cast for my 8mm’s with a .315 groove dia, so that won’t be a problem reloading for them. The ones that are .318 of course there is commercially available bullets. Might start at .315 cast w/gas check, work up to .318, and then see what .323 climbs up to.

I’ll have to see if I can find some of this Czech ammo in part because I’m curious how it is loaded and what type of bullet. I wonder if ammo availability played in some aspect to these barrels. Or maybe ammo comparability? If whoever these were for (supposedly Ecuador) had another rifle that took an 8mm? Some mannlicher or?

Just thinking out loud.

 

[ernie8]

The CZ ammo that I have seen came out of Ecuador with the rifles . The only plus to that ammo was that it would chamber and fire in any 8x57mm rifle , if not very well in some . I did get some Gew-88 rifles from Ecuador that had .325 groove German Z barrels on them and I did test fire some of the .3158 CZ ammo in them . They had trouble holding a 1 foot group at 100 yards . The same ammo did 3.5 inch groups with a small barrel rifle . The CZ ammo still shows up on auction now and then , mostly misidentified as " original German P-88 ammo " .