Concentration Camp Manufactured Rifle Training Exercise - no tricks

[RUSH2022]

mrfarb thank you for sharing this thread. very interesting.

 

[b98]

Free Wisdom

 

[DUV44]

I am fairly ignorant when it comes to camp produced rifles. I have a matching bringback P block bnz 44 in a C marked stock. Is this one a Gusen produced rifle? If I'm reading your post correctly, my rifle seems to line up with a camp rifle. Very informative post as usual, and I appreciate all the info!

 

[mrfarb]

I am fairly ignorant when it comes to camp produced rifles. I have a matching bringback P block bnz 44 in a C marked stock. Is this one a Guzen produced rifle? If I'm reading your post correctly, my rifle seems to line up with a camp rifle. Very informative post as usual, and I appreciate all the info!

A very good example to use for illustrating the point. The only thing not shown is the bolt root marking, if you can let’s see it. Notice the fairly poor manufacturing defects in the shroud and safety.

Receiver - made in Gusen and Waffenamt inspected
Barrel - made at Gusen with Letten machines
Bolt - ? No photo of root but most likely Gusen
Stock - Menzel

As bnz rifles get later in 44, more and more components were manufactured in Gusen. The Steyr facility there was expanded and machines moved from others evacuated areas. No 98k assembly was done there, all 98k parts were sent to Molln for assembly.

One the use of Menzel stocks - it’s undocumented why exactly Steyr relied so heavily on subcontractors for stocks in later 1944 but the obvious reason is probably that all the stock making machinery was destroyed in the Feb and March bombings of the factory and it took time to buy new equipment and place it at Molln.

There was apparently MP40 and MG42 assembly accomplished in the underground facilities nearby.

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

For the answers -- I'll leave off the bnz45 since some people didn't get to include that as they only read the first post and didn't include that in their answers.

#1 Most, #3 second most, #2 minimal to none.

#1 SS Contract 3351:

Receiver - Gusen manufactured
Bolt - Gusen Manufactured
Barrel - Gusen Manufactured
Stock - Menzel
Assembly - Molln Plant

#2 Single Rune 1467:

Receiver - Radom Manufactured
Bolt - Radom Maunfactured
Barrel - Mauser Manufactured
Stock - Menzel
Assembly - Steyr Main Plant

#3 Army Contract Hand Stamp 8570m

Receiver - Mauser Manufactured reclaimed and bnz stamped at Molln (Most likely)
Bolt - Gusen Manufactured
Barrel - Gusen Manufactured
Stock - Molln
Assembly - Molln

So of the 3 rifles, the only one with no major Gusen/Concentraction camp connection is the SS Single rune #2 (its possible some small bolt components were, but minimal parts). The correct order is --

So, that leaves #4 :

Receiver - Gusen
Bolt - Gusen
Barrel - Gusen
Stock - Molln
Assembly - Molln

While the bnz45 seems to tie with the bnz44 ss contract, it actually has more small components directly made at Gusen like all bolt components, trigger, small parts, screws, etc. So the real winner is the bnz45 for Gusen manufacture.

The details:

Barrel production was moved from Molln to Gusen after the bombings to clear factory space for ball bearing production - barrels starting with "D" lot codes seem to be those made at Gusen from the Letten machinery transferred there, as previous barrel codes ended with lower case letters about the time of the move, so its assumed that the "D" series (and later "E") codes were Gusen made.

Initial receiver production at Gusen was problematic and terrible. Those receivers that did get produced were not available to use in SS production until early 1944, and Radom supplied receivers and parts were prevalent. Receivers made at Gusen will be marked with the "large font" bnz43 and bnz44 codes. Once Radom fell to the Russians, all machinery was transferred to Gusen to continue production, and at that time the HWA removed the SS as the sole user of Gusen parts. Its also at that time Gusen receivers were waffenamt inspected for use in Army production.

Stock production and assembly was moved to Molln after the bombing at Steyr in early 1944. This seems to coincide with serial numbering moving from receiver to barrel - its not a hard/fast rule, but its damn close and seems to be the impetus for the serial move at Steyr.

Assembly of parts made at Gusen was accomplished at Steyr proper (even SS contract), and the runes were used to keep SS junk separate from high quality Army production. Hand stamp receivers were done at Molln assembly point. Those hand stamp receivers used in SS production were rune marked to identify them as SS built, as none of the other components were regularly waffenamt inspected and were not suitable for the army. Once the Gusen made/non inspected receivers were in use, the different large font code was evidently an easy way to tell them apart. No Gusen bnz43 receiver were ever used in Army production, and only later inspected bnz44 ones were used in production. After the bombing in early 1944, all assembly was moved to the Molln satellite plant. No 98k assembly was accomplished at Gusen according to period reports from Gusen, including prisoner reports.

Thanks !
What was the clue to guess that the receiver of #1 was made at Gusen ? Only the large font ? I may ask the same question for #4.
I will read the Steyr chapter of Vol III again.

Can we expect more K98k riddles ?

 

[mrfarb]

Thanks !
What was the clue to guess that the receiver of #1 was made at Gusen ? Only the large font ? I may ask the same question for #4.
I will read the Steyr chapter of Vol III again.

Can we expect more K98k riddles ?

Read the Steyr chapter in Vol2 and the SS chapter, all of this is there. Yes, large font bnz44 code was used in Gusen made receivers. I might do more riddles, if I can think of one not generally known.

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

Read the Steyr chapter in Vol2 and the SS chapter, all of this is there. Yes, large font bnz44 code was used in Gusen made receivers. I might do more riddles, if I can think of one not generally known.

Yes, I remember the timeline in a bar chart, but not the details of it

 

[heavy_mech]

A very good example to use for illustrating the point. The only thing not shown is the bolt root marking, if you can let’s see it. Notice the fairly poor manufacturing defects in the shroud and safety.

Receiver - made in Gusen and Waffenamt inspected
Barrel - made at Gusen with Letten machines
Bolt - ? No photo of root but most likely Gusen
Stock - Menzel

As bnz rifles get later in 44, more and more components were manufactured in Gusen. The Steyr facility there was expanded and machines moved from others evacuated areas. No 98k assembly was done there, all 98k parts were sent to Molln for assembly.

One the use of Menzel stocks - it’s undocumented why exactly Steyr relied so heavily on subcontractors for stocks in later 1944 but the obvious reason is probably that all the stock making machinery was destroyed in the Feb and March bombings of the factory and it took time to buy new equipment and place it at Molln.

There was apparently MP40 and MG42 assembly accomplished in the underground facilities nearby.

This gets misconstrued or misquoted very often. I think we've had it several times in the last month or so.

FWIW, I would not have guessed the handstamp had a Gusen bolt from the metal finish on the shank. It's really quite smooth for them. Your description of the root markings gave it away.

 

[M1903A3]

Yes, I remember the timeline in a bar chart, but not the details of it

The bar chart in the book makes understanding Steyr guns a lot easier. The amount of research and the number of guns looked at to make the chart must be staggering!

The bombing seems to have played a large part in location of part manufacture too. For me because my SS contract gun may have been in the factory when it was bombed this event stands out.

There is SOOO MUCH to wrap your brain around with K98 production in general and Steyr in particular! Always something new to learn and explore, which makes it interesting.

 

[mrfarb]

I originally made that bar chart when I was writing the chapter so I could keep track of all the changes and things happening there, it was so useful I included it. I’d post it but without the text I think it would just cause confusion.

 

[M1903A3]

I originally made that bar chart when I was writing the chapter so I could keep track of all the changes and things happening there, it was so useful I included it. I’d post it but without the text I think it would just cause confusion.

Honestly until I got the book and put the text together with the chart I couldn’t really grasp all the parallel changes. For visual people it would be even better. It would indeed be confusing without the text.

Not plugging your book or anything but people interested in Steyr K98s ought to get the book before trying to track down a good, non-faked rifle. There really is that much to know, but it’s worth getting into it!

 

[DUV44]

A very good example to use for illustrating the point. The only thing not shown is the bolt root marking, if you can let’s see it. Notice the fairly poor manufacturing defects in the shroud and safety.

Receiver - made in Gusen and Waffenamt inspected
Barrel - made at Gusen with Letten machines
Bolt - ? No photo of root but most likely Gusen
Stock - Menzel

As bnz rifles get later in 44, more and more components were manufactured in Gusen. The Steyr facility there was expanded and machines moved from others evacuated areas. No 98k assembly was done there, all 98k parts were sent to Molln for assembly.

One the use of Menzel stocks - it’s undocumented why exactly Steyr relied so heavily on subcontractors for stocks in later 1944 but the obvious reason is probably that all the stock making machinery was destroyed in the Feb and March bombings of the factory and it took time to buy new equipment and place it at Molln.

There was apparently MP40 and MG42 assembly accomplished in the underground facilities nearby.

Thank you for the info! Here are pictures of the bolt root.

duv

 

[mrfarb]

Thank you for the info! Here are pictures of the bolt root.

duv

That’s Gusen quality. What an odd attempt at a Waffenamt inspection, but that’s supposed to be an e/623 stamped under/over a 2.

 

[DUV44]

Thank you mrfarb! I've had this rifle for a few years, and I'm glad to learn a little more about it. Interestingly, I used to have a very late war Hi Power that was a papered and documented capture from Gusen. It came with a cutout of a flag and two photo albums filled with pictures taken by the soldier of the camp and aftermath of the liberation. Piles of bodies being buried in a mass grave. It's one of the few pieces I've sold that I wish I had kept even though I was really creeped out by it.