Antiqueshooter00c
Member
The Lyman 323470 is 10 grains lighter, however four times the price. Outpost's suggestion regarding a pound chamber casting is good advice. I'd be interested to hear if both chambers are similar.
Bullets sailing in 8mm Mauser
- Thread starter Tkladar22
- Start date
Cyrano4747
Well-known member
What you're describing is utter bog standard behavior for a military mauser shooting at 100 yards. If you get one that doesn't shoot high like that it's because someone altered the front sight or otherwise screwed with it.
Bullets smaller than groove dia can shoot just fine , it is called bore riding and all of the early military rifles did it . It also depends on the bullet shape and bearing surface . Bullet design will also effect this . Also 8x57mm military rifles can have grooves as large as .326 . So that can be a factor with some bullets . The old Win .321 bullet has a small area compared to some bullets that is .321 . Different bullet weights do change POA in rifles , the amount can also be influenced by groove size and other factors . As I said in the first post , those rifles shoot high anyway , and a different bullet and velocity will also effect that . Epoxy zeroing the sight is the easiest way to fix that and can be removed later .Blackhorn 209?
I think you might mean Hodgdon. I work at Hornady and we're almost completely hands off with powders, other than a minor branding partnership with Hodgdon on "Superformance" and "LeverEvolution" powders. To my knowledge we have nothing to do with Blackhorn 209 other than a few of us use it in our muzzle loaders
To the OP's question, not sure why they're going so high but .321" bullets in a .323" groove barrel may or may not result in poor accuracy. I've conducted or helped with some testing in 6.5mm (.256 land, .264" groove) with bullets that incrementally stepped down to 6mm (.243") and you don't lose spin rate until you get below land diameter (.255-.256 in the case of 6.5mm). You will get a little more blow-by than normal but I'd bet $10 that if you could soft catch the bullets without deforming them, they'd be blown up to .323" (at least a portion of the bearing surface) by the time they exit the muzzle. Exit spin ratio is almost certainly 1:1 with the rifling rate. With iron sights, especially the barleycorn style sights on Mausers nailing down elevation can be difficult and the "perceived optics" of the naked eye in different lighting with iron sights can move things around quite a bit, even with diopter/globe setups.
A question to the Hornady worker . Why does Hornady always make the wrong bullet for old military rifles ? I know some of it is just for sales as most people just buy for looks not performance . A friend and I have test fired 100's of 1000's of many different loads through about 4000 different military rifles , we know what works and why . The best overall Hornady bullet for accuracy for the 8x57mm is the old 150 sp hunting bullet . A match grade 165 cupped base sp bullet would be the best . The German 198 grain sS bullet was not the best for rifles , it was just the heaviest bullet for machine guns that would still shoot OK in the rifles . People think the 154 was best for the long barrel Gew-98 [ it was picked to get the most velocity out of the 8mm to have a comparable battle zero as the 6.5x55mm ] and the 198 is best for the short barrel K-98k . The opposite is true . The 1 in 9.4 twist is not really enough for the heavy bullet , it shoots better with more velocity , which you get with a longer barrel of the Gew-98 . The K-98k shoots it because the machine gun was the main weapon and rifle just needed to fire the same ammo .
Firebug90
Active member
Unfortunately there are a couple of things working against the milsurp community as far as new products and bullet design goes. Hornady 10-15 years ago was still a relatively small company and was willing to make much smaller quantities of bullets/ammo for small distributors (Grafs, for example) and a lot of the surplus calibers were on the table (especially considering rifle imports at that time). At this point I'd say that unless you can get someone or a group of people together to order millions or tens of millions of rounds/bullets, you're not going to get far unless/until business slows WAY down (the last 5 years have been INSANELY busy). The problem therein is the volume of people that reload and/or shoot milsurps. It's just not a lot of people next to hunters, recreational shooters, match shooters, etc. The "new hotness" tends to drive the market. You're not alone in this regard, big-bore "African" double rifle calibers get this treatment, too, with several years between runs of that ammunition.
Also, you can thank Carcanos for a distinctly bad taste in upper managements' mouths for doing anything milsurp. Enough of them ruptured and/or catastrophically failed in customers' hands that nobody is really in the mood to entertain milsurp caliber ammo other than maybe M1 Garand. There are certain calibers that have a large enough commercial production that they'll keep being produced (7x57, 8x47, 6.5x55...), but the oddball milsurp only stuff is going to be a long shot going forward. And with that thought in mind, the general design process is geared towards terminal performance (for hunting bullets anyway, which is one of our primary focuses) in standard commercial hunting application/rifles. Very little thought is usually given to military surplus application. The other side of things is match shooting and that's almost entirely focused around current cartridge offerings (Creedmoors, PRCs, ARCs, etc.).
So... while we do design and make 8mm bullets... For one they're a pretty low volume caliber and don't get a ton of attention anyway, but for two the primary focus is going to be 8x57 commercial rifles (CZ or the like) or 8mm Rem Mag. POI/POA correlation or accuracy in a K98k simply isn't on the priority list, unfortunately. Existing match bullets were designed by Dave Emary for stuff like CMP Vintage matches to more or less duplicate standard issue ammo parameters, but the sales volumes are low enough on them I don't see a redesign taking priority over supporting newer calibers. (end of the day, sales numbers drive most things)
I am an engineer and I design bullets and all the tooling to make the bullets and I am fairly well versed in historical military ammo/projectile designs and I squeeze things in where I can but it's limited to where there's overlap. For example the 174gr ELD-VT is conveniently similar in shape to the GP-11 projectile. Not a 100% match but I do what I can
Probably not the overall message anyone here wants to read but I think it's at least accurate to the current state of things.Looks like I'm buying 500-1,000 174 grn ELD-VT bullets! With how easy it is to jam a .308 diameter bullet into the K31's rifling it will be a very welcomed change.Unfortunately there are a couple of things working against the milsurp community as far as new products and bullet design goes. Hornady 10-15 years ago was still a relatively small company and was willing to make much smaller quantities of bullets/ammo for small distributors (Grafs, for example) and a lot of the surplus calibers were on the table (especially considering rifle imports at that time). At this point I'd say that unless you can get someone or a group of people together to order millions or tens of millions of rounds/bullets, you're not going to get far unless/until business slows WAY down (the last 5 years have been INSANELY busy). The problem therein is the volume of people that reload and/or shoot milsurps. It's just not a lot of people next to hunters, recreational shooters, match shooters, etc. The "new hotness" tends to drive the market. You're not alone in this regard, big-bore "African" double rifle calibers get this treatment, too, with several years between runs of that ammunition.
Also, you can thank Carcanos for a distinctly bad taste in upper managements' mouths for doing anything milsurp. Enough of them ruptured and/or catastrophically failed in customers' hands that nobody is really in the mood to entertain milsurp caliber ammo other than maybe M1 Garand. There are certain calibers that have a large enough commercial production that they'll keep being produced (7x57, 8x47, 6.5x55...), but the oddball milsurp only stuff is going to be a long shot going forward. And with that thought in mind, the general design process is geared towards terminal performance (for hunting bullets anyway, which is one of our primary focuses) in standard commercial hunting application/rifles. Very little thought is usually given to military surplus application. The other side of things is match shooting and that's almost entirely focused around current cartridge offerings (Creedmoors, PRCs, ARCs, etc.).
So... while we do design and make 8mm bullets... For one they're a pretty low volume caliber and don't get a ton of attention anyway, but for two the primary focus is going to be 8x57 commercial rifles (CZ or the like) or 8mm Rem Mag. POI/POA correlation or accuracy in a K98k simply isn't on the priority list, unfortunately. Existing match bullets were designed by Dave Emary for stuff like CMP Vintage matches to more or less duplicate standard issue ammo parameters, but the sales volumes are low enough on them I don't see a redesign taking priority over supporting newer calibers. (end of the day, sales numbers drive most things)
I am an engineer and I design bullets and all the tooling to make the bullets and I am fairly well versed in historical military ammo/projectile designs and I squeeze things in where I can but it's limited to where there's overlap. For example the 174gr ELD-VT is conveniently similar in shape to the GP-11 projectile. Not a 100% match but I do what I can
Now if we could only get some reloader 17 and reloader 22 again
(and reloader 26 for Hornady sake with the 7mm PRC)I do understand the Carcano fiasco . I got a bag of 500 when they first came out . After a lot of testing I wrote an article on what was wrong with them and why they could be dangerous in some Carcano's . It did come Down to not understanding bore riding and the gain twist effect . But they do shoot great in very early Type-38 Arisakas with the poly rifling and .271 groove barrels . The .329 dia bullet for the M-95 rifles was another loser , it shot poorly compared to many other bullets in the M-95's , but was better in other rifles it was not made for . Old Vernon Speer knew how to make bullets for military rifles , they are always the best for accuracy in the rifles they were made for . But those bullets are long gone and really hard to find . I explained why trying to half way copy military bullets is not the best way to go . Now my standards are different than most people . I ran a military rifle match every weekend for over 20 years . Our top shooter got real good , figured out what worked . In our matches with as issued military rifles , original sights , you needed a pair of sub 1 inch 5-shot 100 yard groups to be in the top shooters . Any of the .308 VLD type bullets work well in the K-31 as the slight bearing surface helps with rifles made for .306 ish bullets . The 155 SI Palma is real good in the K-31's and the .306 ish Mas-36's . As an old benchrest shooter , I do make my own bullets . First for benchrest , but it carried on over to military rifles or the wildcat rifles I build .
Cyrano4747
Well-known member
Unfortunately there are a couple of things working against the milsurp community as far as new products and bullet design goes. Hornady 10-15 years ago was still a relatively small company and was willing to make much smaller quantities of bullets/ammo for small distributors (Grafs, for example) and a lot of the surplus calibers were on the table (especially considering rifle imports at that time). At this point I'd say that unless you can get someone or a group of people together to order millions or tens of millions of rounds/bullets, you're not going to get far unless/until business slows WAY down (the last 5 years have been INSANELY busy). The problem therein is the volume of people that reload and/or shoot milsurps. It's just not a lot of people next to hunters, recreational shooters, match shooters, etc. The "new hotness" tends to drive the market. You're not alone in this regard, big-bore "African" double rifle calibers get this treatment, too, with several years between runs of that ammunition.
Also, you can thank Carcanos for a distinctly bad taste in upper managements' mouths for doing anything milsurp. Enough of them ruptured and/or catastrophically failed in customers' hands that nobody is really in the mood to entertain milsurp caliber ammo other than maybe M1 Garand. There are certain calibers that have a large enough commercial production that they'll keep being produced (7x57, 8x47, 6.5x55...), but the oddball milsurp only stuff is going to be a long shot going forward. And with that thought in mind, the general design process is geared towards terminal performance (for hunting bullets anyway, which is one of our primary focuses) in standard commercial hunting application/rifles. Very little thought is usually given to military surplus application. The other side of things is match shooting and that's almost entirely focused around current cartridge offerings (Creedmoors, PRCs, ARCs, etc.).
So... while we do design and make 8mm bullets... For one they're a pretty low volume caliber and don't get a ton of attention anyway, but for two the primary focus is going to be 8x57 commercial rifles (CZ or the like) or 8mm Rem Mag. POI/POA correlation or accuracy in a K98k simply isn't on the priority list, unfortunately. Existing match bullets were designed by Dave Emary for stuff like CMP Vintage matches to more or less duplicate standard issue ammo parameters, but the sales volumes are low enough on them I don't see a redesign taking priority over supporting newer calibers. (end of the day, sales numbers drive most things)
I am an engineer and I design bullets and all the tooling to make the bullets and I am fairly well versed in historical military ammo/projectile designs and I squeeze things in where I can but it's limited to where there's overlap. For example the 174gr ELD-VT is conveniently similar in shape to the GP-11 projectile. Not a 100% match but I do what I can
And this, boys and girls, is why if you are serious about shooting old guns you need to get into reloading, including how to massage projectiles.
Are the M.95 loads in the really old speer manuals? I think my grandpa still has his Speer no.6 or no.8 manuals, hopefully those manuals go back far enough to have that load data. One thing I wish for is having the knowledge etc to make my own copper/cupro nickel jacketed and lead core bullets. Would be fun to make bullets for obsolete calibers but I haven't got the slightest clue aside from going the casting route with how to make bullets.
Muncher 1953
Senior Member
Berry’s makes theirs by 1st casting, then tumbling the bullets in a plating bath. The plating won’t scrape off, it’s pretty thick. I use their 9mm “fmj” 115gns fer plinkin ammo. But the hazmat part of that would be a pita. The machinery for jacketed bullets isn’t large, but would require some commitment of space & capital. It would be cool to have such a small business available to the collector/shooting community.
I am talking about the bullets Vernon use to make 50 years ago before he was bought out . As 4747 said , you can work with existing bullets even if you do not make your own . You can run factory bullets into bullet forming dies to change them to what you want if they are close . I have done that with the .264 6.5mm 160 rn into a .266 die .
You can also make solids . I bought a 6 ft .75 copper rod of the correct alloy to machine down to make 950 grain bullets for my 70 cal dino rifle I built . But it is work as each bullet takes about 10 minutes to make . Cutting it to dia , shape , cutting driving bands , the hollow point [ as you do need knock down power with some dinosaurs ] .
Fal Grunt
Senior Member
You can make really fantastic bullets by swaging them. A friend who shoots competitive muzzle loading out to 1500 yds built a press to make bullets after he wasn't happy with the consistency of casting. With swaging, his dies meter the bullet weight. With his medical scale the bullets are consistent to a mind blowing degree.
