I inherited a “sporterized 8mm Mauser”. Looks like original military barrel. I also inherited a large number of rounds that are factory ammo from the Olin Winchester factory in East Alton, IL. These have 170 grain bullet. 2500 FPS on the chronograph. Not sure on powder. When I shoot them at 50 yards they group pretty well, but from 50 to 100 yards they sail high about 12”. Because I have all this ammo I picked up an M48 and the bullets do the same thing in this gun. Is there something about the Mauser rifling and these 170 grain bullets that causes them to sail high? Not sure if I should just shoot them all and reload to a bullet that these guns like, or just knock them apart, save the powder and reload to a different bullet. Any thoughts are appreciated.
Bullets sailing in 8mm Mauser
- Thread starter Tkladar22
- Start date
What Mauser is your sporterized one ? Your M-48 [ and the sporter too ? ] was factory sighted for different ammo , a 198 grain bullet , plus it will shoot high at 100 yards anyway . Also the Win ammo has a smaller dia bullet [ .321 ] than military sS ammo , which also can cause it to shoot different . If you want to use up that ammo just build up the front sight with some epoxy and sand it down for your 100 yard zero with that ammo . OR that ammo is very good for the Gew-88 rifle with the .3208 barrel and people with those may want your ammo .
Not sure on the sporterized one. M48 is all original. Barrels look similar. I will check the diameter of the factory ones and some 150 grain sierra that I bought.
You are correct. Winchester factory ammo is .321. Probably not spinning the bullet properly? That explains it. If anyone is interested in this ammo I would probably sell some.
I am looking to pick up an 88 soon, so I would potentially be interested depending on what you were asking for it. Shoot me a pm or post it in the forum trader.
Muncher 1953
Senior Member
if the issue were with the bullet diameter, they’d not only hit high, but left right & down as well. (and hit the paper sideways) I’ve found that loaded rounds of ppu 8mm run similarly undersize, but at 100-200 yards, still group reliably around 5” circle. that won’t win a competition but will kill deer/bear/moose/etc reliably, and hit the target but not miss the backstop. the sight system was designed around fighting at 300-400 meters, not 50-100 meters. After 1940, the Germans started loading w/the S.m.E. bullet to save lead, 178 gn vs 198 gn for s.S. projectile. By ‘43 the lighter bullet outnumbered the heavier in the BILLIONS of rounds produced, there was no program to recalibrate the sights. In your shoes, I’d just hold lower & save the brass to reload with the bullet of choice.
To solve a similar problem, I simply use a blank, white sheet of paper ABOVE the aiming bull . . . .
This 100-yard, 10-shot group is about 18” above the BOTTOM of the aiming point . . . .(6 o’clock hold)
I’m not much interested in the POI . . . . Only that all ten shots go into a reasonable group!
This 100-yard, 10-shot group is about 18” above the BOTTOM of the aiming point . . . .(6 o’clock hold)
I’m not much interested in the POI . . . . Only that all ten shots go into a reasonable group!
I have some 150 gr .323 bullets and reloading dies, so first I will try some different bullets at 50 and 100 yards. I have plenty of other guns for hunting, so don’t need these. Planned to shoot up the ammo and reload, may just have to buy a modern rifle in 8x57 since I have a lot of brass. Never seen a rifle do what these are doing, literally rising a foot from 50 to 100 yards.
Muncher 1953
Senior Member
Different equipment, but I’ve been quite surprised to find that my Thompson Center Impact .50cal inline muzzle loader does a similar thing with a particular load. at 50 yards, dead on; at 100, up about 6”, both groups acceptable for whitetail hunting in my woods. using a 245 gn pistol bullet in a .50 cal sabot over 70 gn (weighed) of Blackhorn 209. fall of ‘23 I thought it was operator error, when I got the same results fall ‘24, I said ‘Ahah!’ Too bad Hornady bought the product line & quadrupled the price, AND shrunk the container!
keep in mind the Mauser sight ladders are marked out to 2000 meters, & conceived when ballistic science was considerably different than today. For me, the fun of shooting 8mm comes from the vintage rifle, I’d probably choose something more shoulder friendly if I was to shoot modern iron. Your $$, your ammo, so your choice!
keep in mind the Mauser sight ladders are marked out to 2000 meters, & conceived when ballistic science was considerably different than today. For me, the fun of shooting 8mm comes from the vintage rifle, I’d probably choose something more shoulder friendly if I was to shoot modern iron. Your $$, your ammo, so your choice!
Since that seems to be Gewehr 98 with the Roller coaster sights I believe the lowest the sight will go is 400 meters, which makes sense why yours shoots that high above aiming point. Mine does the same but is superbly accurate. The 98k rifle sights were designed to be zeroed at 100 meters as indicated on the rear sight ladder. Yes a 6 0'clock hold still shoots a hair high but not as much as the G98 400 meter zero. I've had good luck with pretty much any surplus and modern full powered 8mm (besides the horribly underpowered PPU 8mm) staying true to being pretty much spot on at 100 meters. The PPU is so underpowered I'd bet if you use it in your Gewehr it would shoot closer to POA/POI. PPU shoots about 18 inches low for me at 100 meters out of a 98k. Haven't tried it in my G98 yet
plymouthmauser
Senior Member
Is it a K98? Battle zero on these are 150M.
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If you used that Gewehr 98 for the group that ya took a picture of I would suggest burying the front sight post in the bottom of the V notch or try burying the front sight in the V by quarter sections. That should drop your zero and if the Italians figured it out with the Carcano then I'm positive everyone else did back in the day lol
Firebug90
Active member
Blackhorn 209?
I think you might mean Hodgdon. I work at Hornady and we're almost completely hands off with powders, other than a minor branding partnership with Hodgdon on "Superformance" and "LeverEvolution" powders. To my knowledge we have nothing to do with Blackhorn 209 other than a few of us use it in our muzzle loaders
To the OP's question, not sure why they're going so high but .321" bullets in a .323" groove barrel may or may not result in poor accuracy. I've conducted or helped with some testing in 6.5mm (.256 land, .264" groove) with bullets that incrementally stepped down to 6mm (.243") and you don't lose spin rate until you get below land diameter (.255-.256 in the case of 6.5mm). You will get a little more blow-by than normal but I'd bet $10 that if you could soft catch the bullets without deforming them, they'd be blown up to .323" (at least a portion of the bearing surface) by the time they exit the muzzle. Exit spin ratio is almost certainly 1:1 with the rifling rate. With iron sights, especially the barleycorn style sights on Mausers nailing down elevation can be difficult and the "perceived optics" of the naked eye in different lighting with iron sights can move things around quite a bit, even with diopter/globe setups.
Muncher 1953
Senior Member
Busted!Blackhorn 209?
I think you might mean Hodgdon. I work at Hornady and we're almost completely hands off with powders, other than a minor branding partnership with Hodgdon on "Superformance" and "LeverEvolution" powders. To my knowledge we have nothing to do with Blackhorn 209 other than a few of us use it in our muzzle loaders
To the OP's question, not sure why they're going so high but .321" bullets in a .323" groove barrel may or may not result in poor accuracy. I've conducted or helped with some testing in 6.5mm (.256 land, .264" groove) with bullets that incrementally stepped down to 6mm (.243") and you don't lose spin rate until you get below land diameter (.255-.256 in the case of 6.5mm). You will get a little more blow-by than normal but I'd bet $10 that if you could soft catch the bullets without deforming them, they'd be blown up to .323" (at least a portion of the bearing surface) by the time they exit the muzzle. Exit spin ratio is almost certainly 1:1 with the rifling rate. With iron sights, especially the barleycorn style sights on Mausers nailing down elevation can be difficult and the "perceived optics" of the naked eye in different lighting with iron sights can move things around quite a bit, even with diopter/globe setups.
Hornady/Hodgdon, Damn, I hate when I do that! Thank you!
I have plenty of hunting rifles and probably wouldn’t use these for hunting, but I would like to shoot them. I am pretty sure the German infantry would not have faired very well if their rifles were not flat shooting between 50 and 100 yards. I don’t know. The “sporter” has a recoil pad and isn’t bad, the M48 is pretty hard on the shoulder.
It’s the trajectory of the bullet that is the problem. I can adjust for bullet drop, but rising 12” from 50 to 100 yards. The sites are dead on at 50 yards on both guns. You would think there wouldn’t be much different at 100 yards, but with same point of aim, impact is 12” higher. I have never had a rifle do this. Something is out of whack.Blackhorn 209?
I think you might mean Hodgdon. I work at Hornady and we're almost completely hands off with powders, other than a minor branding partnership with Hodgdon on "Superformance" and "LeverEvolution" powders. To my knowledge we have nothing to do with Blackhorn 209 other than a few of us use it in our muzzle loaders
To the OP's question, not sure why they're going so high but .321" bullets in a .323" groove barrel may or may not result in poor accuracy. I've conducted or helped with some testing in 6.5mm (.256 land, .264" groove) with bullets that incrementally stepped down to 6mm (.243") and you don't lose spin rate until you get below land diameter (.255-.256 in the case of 6.5mm). You will get a little more blow-by than normal but I'd bet $10 that if you could soft catch the bullets without deforming them, they'd be blown up to .323" (at least a portion of the bearing surface) by the time they exit the muzzle. Exit spin ratio is almost certainly 1:1 with the rifling rate. With iron sights, especially the barleycorn style sights on Mausers nailing down elevation can be difficult and the "perceived optics" of the naked eye in different lighting with iron sights can move things around quite a bit, even with diopter/globe setups.
Muncher 1953
Senior Member
this is excellent information, thank you for sharing it.Blackhorn 209?
I think you might mean Hodgdon. I work at Hornady and we're almost completely hands off with powders, other than a minor branding partnership with Hodgdon on "Superformance" and "LeverEvolution" powders. To my knowledge we have nothing to do with Blackhorn 209 other than a few of us use it in our muzzle loaders
To the OP's question, not sure why they're going so high but .321" bullets in a .323" groove barrel may or may not result in poor accuracy. I've conducted or helped with some testing in 6.5mm (.256 land, .264" groove) with bullets that incrementally stepped down to 6mm (.243") and you don't lose spin rate until you get below land diameter (.255-.256 in the case of 6.5mm). You will get a little more blow-by than normal but I'd bet $10 that if you could soft catch the bullets without deforming them, they'd be blown up to .323" (at least a portion of the bearing surface) by the time they exit the muzzle. Exit spin ratio is almost certainly 1:1 with the rifling rate. With iron sights, especially the barleycorn style sights on Mausers nailing down elevation can be difficult and the "perceived optics" of the naked eye in different lighting with iron sights can move things around quite a bit, even with diopter/globe setups.
My Posen depot rifle had a burr in the groove of the crown which made my rifle shoot around 1.5-2 feet high and 4-6 feet to the right at 100 yards. I doubt anything is wrong and it could just be the arc of the bullet with that load but only checking the rifling and testing multiple factors will reveal if something is wrong. The 170 grain ammo should be in the low too mid 2600 fps range and if you wanna get really close to milspec for the Gewehr 98 then a 150 grain bullet (154 grain is the exact bullet weight they used but 150 is the closest available today with modern bullet production) at 2880 fps is basically the WW1 clone load for the Patrone S service load. I'd try that and see if it flattens for ya. Ya sporterized rifle tho could be having a lot of barrel whip and causing the high impacts since fully free floated barrels was not a thing yet due to wanting barrels with lighter weight for comfort of carrying the rifle over marching distances. (Ounces equal pounds, pounds equal pain)
With that noted then I'd have to agree. Rifles sound fine and most likely just a ammo issue. Nosler and Speer have some warm loads in the 170 grain bullet weight range and ya should find something that works, even Hornady load manual should have some good recipes in there for stuff in the 170 grain range.
