BSW SS OBJECTIVE MOUNT SNIPER RIFLE

[Hercules]

For my personal understanding, If the Waffen SS was given all the same equipment as the Heer and were not given weapons from contract runs and depots, who was issued the double and single claw sniper rifles?

The Single Claw is a Heer or Army Weapon. The Double Claw was a SS weapon. There is not a combat photo showing a SS Double Claw that I know of. The only SS Double Claw Photo I have seen has two guys in a boat with the Double Claw in front of a camo clad SS Soldiers?

 

[Absolut]

Here are 2 more Original Photo from my personal collection of SS OBJECTIVE MOUNT Rifles .
Photo on left shows a SS OM RIFLE with Dialytan 4X
Photo on right shows a SS OM Rifle with Ziel-Dialyt 6X and Mono Pod. I want to point out that the Scopes Front Rings has different placement than the than the known Objective Mount Type Scopes .

Thanks for posting them! The most interesting aspect so far no one pointed out: both scope rings are on the tube. Knowing how you remove the scope this means it really requires the front to be high if not mounted to the objective. Plus technically it makes them no OM but Suhler Claw Mount, just to have it mentioned .

 

[Hercules]

Thanks for posting them! The most interesting aspect so far no one pointed out: both scope rings are on the tube. Knowing how you remove the scope this means it really requires the front to be high if not mounted to the objective. Plus technically it makes them no OM but Suhler Claw Mount, just to have it mentioned .

The scope on the left looks like it is mounted on the objective bell to me. @Dave Roberts, how does it look in the original photo?

 

[flynaked]

Georg, this is mentioned in post #49

 

[Dave Roberts]

That’s a tall request Dave. I’ve seen the monopod in photos and had not seen a photo where I could make out the 6X Scope. Now to find one for sale. Well that’s another story. Always looking. I think most of these probably ended up in Russia.

Later in the war the Waffen SS probably could get the same snipers as the Heer.

I agree it a tall request Brian but if You don't ask you will never know , I can recall how many collectors have asked me to let them have first shot at specific sniper rifles if I ever sold or if I found one I did not want or need , why should I not do and expect the same from a fellow collector and friend !!!!

Most of them are likely dust by now or sporterized beyond recognition , a friend once told me I would have better odds of winning Power Ball than I would to ever find a Belgian Fusil Sniper Rifle and I bought one of those at my local Gun Shop a few years back , that said the same could happen with coming across an SS Suhler Claw Mount with Mono Pod and Ziel Dialyt 6X

 

[Dave Roberts]

Thanks for posting them! The most interesting aspect so far no one pointed out: both scope rings are on the tube. Knowing how you remove the scope this means it really requires the front to be high if not mounted to the objective. Plus technically it makes them no OM but Suhler Claw Mount, just to have it mentioned .

Georg
The photo on the left this is an Objective Mount Sniper the ring is not mounted to the tube , I specifically pointed out in my post that the photo on the right showed that this Scope had its front ring mounted on the tube rather than the objective .

 

[Warrior1354]

Might be a little off topic, but it looks like this Reichswehr era sniper rifle was not cut for a bolt recess in the stock. I wonder if some of these Gew98m snipers with the SS. Were older Reichswehr sniper rifles updated by them.

 

[Hercules]

I agree it a tall request Brian but if You don't ask you will never know , I can recall how many collectors have asked me to let them have first shot at specific sniper rifles if I ever sold or if I found one I did not want or need , why should I not do and expect the same from a fellow collector and friend !!!!

Most of them are likely dust by now or sporterized beyond recognition , a friend once told me I would have better odds of winning Power Ball than I would to ever find a Belgian Fusil Sniper Rifle and I bought one of those at my local Gun Shop a few years back , that said the same could happen with coming across an SS Suhler Claw Mount with Mono Pod and Ziel Dialyt 6X

Yes of course. I am always looking for WW2 stuff and not just snipers. However, sniper stuff is always at the top of the list. I have found a couple of items for friends lately when they have ask. The Sauer Turret from SOS went to a friend who ask me to find that specific thing. I thought that was a tough request. Just got a checkered butt plate for another guy. Who knows what will be found next. Enjoyed your rifle and pictures here.

 

[RyanE]

You are under the impression that SS contract guns were for the Waffen SS - They we’re not. Either that or you are not understanding the difference between SS and Waffen SS.

Read the order - the SS was responsible for supplying weapons to the training units, SS Totenkopf units and SS Police units operating under NSDAP orders. Wehrmacht weapons were for Waffen SS units under command of the Army. If SS units were not under command of the Army they were not allowed access to weapons. The SS also used the Army depot repair system while in service of the Wehrmacht.

To bring the point back around, IMO these objective mount rifles were supplied by the army to the SS and the arming of the WaffenSS was why they came about. I wouldn’t put it past the army to scope Gew98m’s and supply them to the SS as well (as seen in Dave’s photo). By the way, the army wasn’t happy about arming the WaffenSS at a time they needed rifles for their own units.

One day documents will show up and end any speculation. They must exist….

I think that I must disagree on this point.

The SS had been permitted to purchase weapons from the Army since the secret order of 17 August 1938, though you can imagine how well that worked out in practice. The 1940 order simply made clear that SS units attached to the field army would have to be supplied by the Army free of charge. Probably more importantly, it was also another way for the Army to limit the growth of the SS. By strictly laying out which units would be armed, and restricting the number of men available to those units, the Army could prevent the SS from growing its private army and developing into a serious political threat. But the SS didn't shut down their own logistical systems for the field units, and the SS never really stopped its attempts to circumvent the Army's control over weapons production: the SS M41, SS MP42, etc. The SS hated being under the thumb of the Army, so I think all of the contract and depot stuff were in fact intended for field divisions. Who else would they have been for?

The RSHA/SD apparently had their own somewhat independent logistical system with the main(?) SD depot located at Rauscha, and the SS-Polizei units (not to be confused with the W-SS Polizei Division!) were all under the Orpo and supplied by the PTV-Zeugamt in Berlin. The TK units could have been a possibility, but with the exception of the camp units, they were effectively dissolved and integrated into the Waffen-SS by late 1941 anyway. How many guns do camp guards need?

As for the OM snipers, I agree that these were snipers assembled using rifles supplied by the Army in 1939-1941, though I think its probably more likely these OM snipers were farmed out to a commercial firm for conversion by the SS rather than the Army. Doesn't really matter either way. The lack of any markings is a bit odd though. You would think the SS or the Army would have at least performed some kind of acceptance inspection whether depot or commercially assembled.

Proposed timeline of the independently acquired SS snipers:
1939-1941: SS Objective Mount (commercial or depot assembled)
1941-1943: SS Short Side Rail (commercial or depot assembled)
1944-1945: SS Double Claw (Brünn assembled)

Does that sound about right?

 

[Dave Roberts]

Yes of course. I am always looking for WW2 stuff and not just snipers. However, sniper stuff is always at the top of the list. I have found a couple of items for friends lately when they have ask. The Sauer Turret from SOS went to a friend who ask me to find that specific thing. I thought that was a tough request. Just got a checkered butt plate for another guy. Who knows what will be found next. Enjoyed your rifle and pictures here.

OK then , I will be waiting for your message saying you found me that specific type Sniper Rifle , but please don't take to long , I am getting impatient in my old age .

 

[Absolut]

Georg
The photo on the left this is an Objective Mount Sniper the ring is not mounted to the tube , I specifically pointed out in my post that the photo on the right showed that this Scope had its front ring mounted on the tube rather than the objective .

Well then it is no Objective Mount but Tube Mount, that is what I wanted to say. And this is what so far had not been addressed. If you consider those with the tube soldered Suhler Claw Mount scopes to be SS, am I'm then to assume all OM are Wehrmacht?

 

[Absolut]

Might be a little off topic, but it looks like this Reichswehr era sniper rifle was not cut for a bolt recess in the stock. I wonder if some of these Gew98m snipers with the SS. Were older Reichswehr sniper rifles updated by them.


View attachment 322071

Yes OT, but to me it does look like it has a bolt recess. Just difficult to see from this angle.

Interesting to note though that this is the variant with the flat front base (versus the one that has a recess).

 

[Dave Roberts]

If you consider those with the tube soldered Suhler Claw Mount scopes to be SS, am I'm then to assume all OM are Wehrmacht?

Georg
I specifically pointed out that the ring was mounted on the Tube so everyone would see the difference and that its an SS Rifle . I agree that technically its not an OM . I think it clear we

I do believe the rifle in the photo that shows the front ring mounted to tube and which also sports a Mono Pod which is to date has only been found/seen on SS OM type rifles or like example rifle in photo below which sports a Ziel-Dialyt 6X

Its been well established in this discussion and past discussions and with photographic evidence that there 2 different types that used by the SS and that which is used by Heer and also the differences between the 2 Branches of their perspective Sniper Rifles .

Why would You assume that all OM are Wehrmacht when You know they are not and how to tell an SS Sniper rifle from a Heer OM and its been clarified
in past discussion how to tell an SS OM from a Heer OM .

 

[mrfarb]

I think that I must disagree on this point.

The SS had been permitted to purchase weapons from the Army since the secret order of 17 August 1938, though you can imagine how well that worked out in practice. The 1940 order simply made clear that SS units attached to the field army would have to be supplied by the Army free of charge. Probably more importantly, it was also another way for the Army to limit the growth of the SS. By strictly laying out which units would be armed, and restricting the number of men available to those units, the Army could prevent the SS from growing its private army and developing into a serious political threat. But the SS didn't shut down their own logistical systems for the field units, and the SS never really stopped its attempts to circumvent the Army's control over weapons production: the SS M41, SS MP42, etc. The SS hated being under the thumb of the Army, so I think all of the contract and depot stuff were in fact intended for field divisions. Who else would they have been for?

The RSHA/SD apparently had their own somewhat independent logistical system with the main(?) SD depot located at Rauscha, and the SS-Polizei units (not to be confused with the W-SS Polizei Division!) were all under the Orpo and supplied by the PTV-Zeugamt in Berlin. The TK units could have been a possibility, but with the exception of the camp units, they were effectively dissolved and integrated into the Waffen-SS by late 1941 anyway. How many guns do camp guards need?

As for the OM snipers, I agree that these were snipers assembled using rifles supplied by the Army in 1939-1941, though I think its probably more likely these OM snipers were farmed out to a commercial firm for conversion by the SS rather than the Army. Doesn't really matter either way. The lack of any markings is a bit odd though. You would think the SS or the Army would have at least performed some kind of acceptance inspection whether depot or commercially assembled.

Proposed timeline of the independently acquired SS snipers:
1939-1941: SS Objective Mount (commercial or depot assembled)
1941-1943: SS Short Side Rail (commercial or depot assembled)
1944-1945: SS Double Claw (Brünn assembled)

Does that sound about right?

OK, a worthy argument. First, I agree, none of the OM type rifles were actually assembled by the Army, I did not mean to imply they actually built them. But, my opinion is they had them assembled for the SS from Army stocks to supply the SS with scoped rifles to fill the TO&E requirement, and I believe by the mount maker myself. I agree with most everything else.

However - you ask "how many guns do camp guards need" - very few I imagine. So, read the 1940 order - the SS Training and Replacement Battalions were excluded from receiving arms from the Wehrmacht stocks, only units actually engaged in field operations under the Army were allowed access. So - who - the entirety of the SS Replacement Divisions. Remember, later in the war the SS was raising a lot of new divisions, which means even more recruits (foreign mostly) and training battalions for those divisions. The supply of reworked Gew98 rifles was already in the SS Ausbildungs und Ersatz Battalions. any expansion would require more rifles. IMO the depot at Dachau was set up to suppply the training battalions specifically, especially since the army order forbid the use of Heer rifles for those battalions. I never researched the size of training battalions vs field battalions, but I suspect they were large and would probably be easy to get troop numbers for.

Now - do I think NONE of the SS contract guns ended up fielded by WaffenSS units at the front? No, but it was very concerning to the Army that they might get mixed in with HWa accepted arms (which was the purpose of the rune marking originally).

For instance - I had one verbal report of an single rune 98k captured by a 101st div vet. Supposedly, it was taken from as SS guard post on the way to the Eagles Nest. This is a perfect example of a unit with no access to Army weapons that still needs a rifle. Sure, its anecdotal, but my point here is there are a lot of men in the SS divisions that did not see front line service but still needed weapons. I saw one question why you find single runes in used condition - training unit use would cause wear more/equal to combat use. Also, a lot of SS contract guns you see are new condition, even 43 dated ones, indicating possibly depot captured. All fanciful stories for sure, but you have to expand the idea of what SS units used 98k's and realize the depth of the SS organization, which you do.

 

[mdarnell19]

OK, a worthy argument. First, I agree, none of the OM type rifles were actually assembled by the Army, I did not mean to imply they actually built them. But, my opinion is they had them assembled for the SS from Army stocks to supply the SS with scoped rifles to fill the TO&E requirement, and I believe by the mount maker myself. I agree with most everything else.

However - you ask "how many guns do camp guards need" - very few I imagine. So, read the 1940 order - the SS Training and Replacement Battalions were excluded from receiving arms from the Wehrmacht stocks, only units actually engaged in field operations under the Army were allowed access. So - who - the entirety of the SS Replacement Divisions. Remember, later in the war the SS was raising a lot of new divisions, which means even more recruits (foreign mostly) and training battalions for those divisions. The supply of reworked Gew98 rifles was already in the SS Ausbildungs und Ersatz Battalions. any expansion would require more rifles. IMO the depot at Dachau was set up to suppply the training battalions specifically, especially since the army order forbid the use of Heer rifles for those battalions. I never researched the size of training battalions vs field battalions, but I suspect they were large and would probably be easy to get troop numbers for.

Now - do I think NONE of the SS contract guns ended up fielded by WaffenSS units at the front? No, but it was very concerning to the Army that they might get mixed in with HWa accepted arms (which was the purpose of the rune marking originally).

For instance - I had one verbal report of an single rune 98k captured by a 101st div vet. Supposedly, it was taken from as SS guard post on the way to the Eagles Nest. This is a perfect example of a unit with no access to Army weapons that still needs a rifle. Sure, its anecdotal, but my point here is there are a lot of men in the SS divisions that did not see front line service but still needed weapons. I saw one question why you find single runes in used condition - training unit use would cause wear more/equal to combat use. Also, a lot of SS contract guns you see are new condition, even 43 dated ones, indicating possibly depot captured. All fanciful stories for sure, but you have to expand the idea of what SS units used 98k's and realize the depth of the SS organization, which you do.

Yes exactly, I agree. I was thinking the same and was going to post the exact same thing. You just beat me to it. Weird how much we think alike.

 

[mrfarb]

Yes exactly, I agree. I was thinking the same and was going to post the exact same thing. You just beat me to it. Weird how much we think alike.

 

[PMDS7]

Beautiful rifle!