AX41 deaths head marked Russian capture k98 at the MOSINCRATE Is it legit?

[bnz41john]

Mosin crates facebook just posted a ax41 SS marked rifle for sale. I am by no means a professional especially on SS stuff. I really like Alden at the mosin crate hes a outstanding guy but this rifle seems fishy. The pictures arent the best either. I questioned the rifle on facebook and he told me to post it on a forum to see what people thought so here we are. Heres his description:

"AX41 deaths head marked Russian capture k98. This is from my own collection. The story behind this rifle is either pilfered or otherwise owned by the SS and the barrel was replaced and marked by them. Also under the wood line is another SS depot mark that is not something fakers are currently aware of. I 100 percent guarantee this item and have several top collectors who can verify this rifle as well as a collector who saw this rifle in hand at the importer. Another words this is not one of the many fakes you see. This is the real deal.
I have not seen one of these for sale in a while. 5 years ago another major milsurp dealer had these for $1200 a piece and they sold right away. That was half a decade ago."


If it is indeed legit I will apologize to Alden myself.

John.

 

[mrfarb]

Honestly, this is not enough information to make any call at all, bad or good. As far as the statement that the markings under the woodline are SS depot marks, that is wrong- these are commercial markings from the Zella-Mehlis proof house and have nothing to do with the SS. (Heart with Fir tree is the Zella-Mehlis mark)

Is the barrel matching numbered to the receiver number? Any commerical Eagle N on the receiver? If not that's a dead giveaway that the barrel is just a salvaged part and could have been screwed on at any time.

It's so hard to determine much from RC's when it comes to SS stuff, to easy to just pop a good quality skull on there and whammo.

 

[ncreptile]

I posted this up around an hour ago. John demanded proof because so many of these are fake. I wont pretend I'm an expert, but I know the source that I purchased this rifle from as do several what I would consider distinguished members and mods on gunboards who agreed this rifle was legitimate. If there was any question in my mind on this rifle I would not have it in my collection and I sure as heck would not sell it as real. I have a policy of taking returns no matter how long past its been on anything thats deemed non original because thats just good business.

Heres what gunboards had to say John.
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...-deaths-head-PICS-ADDED&highlight=Deaths+head
I did not post this thread with the gun because frankly I did not want to drag these gentlemen into it. This was a thread from years ago and no doubt people would PM them asking questions and thats not fair to them. But because John pressed it. There ya go.

On this one especially if someone buys it and its confirmed as a fake, I'll take it in return and give the buyer $100 for any time wasted.

As for your post.. Call me a bit unprofessional but it just seemed to me rather than asking or posting to help me or others out, you instead posted because you know most of these are faked and decided you'd show me you were right. I'm not in this business to be questioned nor deal with drama like this and please don't take any disrespect from this but I'd appreciate you take your business elsewhere in the future. This may create more drama than it solves, I hate even typing that sentence. But I can't help but feel this entire thing was a "I'll show you" rather than "I'll help you". Really a shame.

 

[bnz41john]

You simply could have showed me a link to that thread and I would have shut my mouth.

John.

 

[Warrior1354]

Alden any rifle posted on the internet for sale can be question by someone. That's the risk you take with it being online. Have many guns posted on here were from gunbroker with questions. How many on going auctions and other sales are posted on Dave's ww2 weapons forum with questions? I have myself been question on my stuff too comes with the territory.

 

[mrfarb]

Let me add some knowledge to the thread instead and keep the personal animus out of it. I always prefer to let things stand on their own - I still can't see photos of the serial numbering on the barrel to see if it's the same number but I gather from that thread that it is.

German proof law stated that any firearm that got a new barrel had to be reproofed (or any part of the lock mechanism - barrel, receiver, bolt). Anyway, this rifle was rebarreled and sent for proofing at the Zella-Mehlis proof house in Feb. 1943 as indicated by the 243 marking. The EagleN is the Nitro proof, the EagleJ designates a new proof after repair. Both are correct for Zella-Mehlis.

The SS2 marking looks real as well- most likely this one was reworked by the SS (at a depot) with a new barrel, and proofed at Zella-Mehlis, and has the correct EagleN on barrel and receiver. The bolt would have received the EagleN as well during the reproofing. I think Alden would be safe in his guarantee, but I'd bet you could find 2 experts to say it's fake- lot's of people think all SS stuff is fake and rightly so.

So - in my opinion, it's real, but there's not much left of it. Too bad, it would have been neat to see it whole, but the reality is most were chewed up on the fighting.

One other thing - a lot of the RC imports had fake SS markings added to them, a LOT of them. Just because it's an RC isn't proof, the Ukrainians knew they could get more for SS marked things and made sure they had some, so caution is advised.

 

[ncreptile]

You simply could have showed me a link to that thread and I would have shut my mouth.

John.

John,
I posted in the original listing I had several collectors attest to this rifle including someone who saw it in person at the original owners years ago. I said I'd be happy to share this information with any potential buyer. I could have posted this link in the post but that would have been rude to the members in that thread who would no doubt themselves be questioned like this.

My goal as a business is to avoid drama. If I have any hint of something even remotely being not legit, I won't sell it, period. Because no amount is worth the drama and fallout that would follow from something like that. I run my business by the long run, not a quick sale.

Thanks for your time.


@MrFarb, thanks for the information on the Fir Tree, I was under the assumption that this was an SS depot marking. I have three potential buyers and I will let them know about this.

 

[bnz41john]

Well here you go sir. I apologize fully for even questioning your rifle. Its that simple. I know nothing about these rifles compared to others on this forum. Rifle looked fishy so I made a simple comment on facebook. I complimented your company and asked who had looked at the rifle. Not once did I say the rifle was infact fake. I guess Ill keep my big mouth shut next time around. I feel like I was attacked for even trying to question the rifle but regardless I hope well for you, the business and for the sale of your rifle.

John.

 

[mrfarb]

John,

@MrFarb, thanks for the information on the Fir Tree, I was under the assumption that this was an SS depot marking. I have three potential buyers and I will let them know about this.

Thanks. If you could, have the buyer contact me when they get it, I might like some photos for the book Bruce and I are doing. It would be an interesting addition if it all checks out like it looks to be- it's interesting and I'd like to see some better images.

 

[ncreptile]

Well here you go sir. I apologize fully for even questioning your rifle. Its that simple. I know nothing about these rifles compared to others on this forum. Rifle looked fishy so I made a simple comment on facebook. I complimented your company and asked who had looked at the rifle. Not once did I say the rifle was infact fake. I guess Ill keep my big mouth shut next time around. I feel like I was attacked for even trying to question the rifle but regardless I hope well for you, the business and for the sale of your rifle.

John.

No problem John. I sent you a message on facebook about no hard feelings. I just feel when someone questions a gun they are questioning my ethics and that really gets to me because if theres one thing I can be proud of when I die, it's that I remained honest. I make mistakes like any other person but believe it or not I care more about my customers than I do myself. If I buy a rifle that is fake, well I've screwed myself. But if I sell one, then I've effected myself, another person and my reputation. So I make my best effort to be sure of something, if this was questionable I would not have sold it or clearly listed it as so. So when you questioned me it just go under my skin because I felt it was with ill intent(and I believe you now when you say it is not)

I'm trying to look at this from your viewpoint as well and I know in a few days I'll be over this and completely forgotten. I apologize to this forum for the drama that was brought here which would not have happened if I had not helped to escalate it.


@ Farb, I sent him a message already with your username. I'm also thinking of showing him this thread but a bit embarrassed of the drama(which of course takes two and I'm the major party in that).

 

[mrfarb]

Alden, the K98k world is fraught with fakes and frauds, people are nervous. Anything you post for sale anywhere is likely to get the same treatment - you shouldn't take it personal. If you are wrong about something it makes you human, not a bad guy. Now, those that knowingly sell a bunch of humped up crap to people, then they have a problem.

 

[bnz41john]

I commented on it like it was just another random facebook post. It wasn't, it was a post by a business. That was my first mistake. I know your a straight up guy and run a good business. So again my apologies. From you viewpoint I guess comments like I made would be enough to get under my skin as well. If I can help you in anyway let me know. Probably keeping my mouth shut would be best? haha. I will also apologize to this forum for also bringing un-necessary drama. This could have been discussed in private.

John.

 

[ncreptile]

I commented on it like it was just another random facebook post. It wasn't, it was a post by a business. That was my first mistake. I know your a straight up guy and run a good business. So again my apologies. From you viewpoint I guess comments like I made would be enough to get under my skin as well. If I can help you in anyway let me know. Probably keeping my mouth shut would be best? haha. I will also apologize to this forum for also bringing un-necessary drama. This could have been discussed in private.

John.

Just shoot me a Pm in the future John. Remind me "I'm that pain in the a$$ guy that thinks you sell fake ****" and I'll remember you(just kidding ) and I'll give you any information I have.


@ Farb
I'm going to be buying the new K98 books here soon. I love K98 rifles and have been out of the game way too long. One thing is exactly like it used to be, fakes are everywhere.

 

[mrfarb]

I commented on it like it was just another random facebook post. It wasn't, it was a post by a business. That was my first mistake. I know your a straight up guy and run a good business. So again my apologies. From you viewpoint I guess comments like I made would be enough to get under my skin as well. If I can help you in anyway let me know. Probably keeping my mouth shut would be best? haha. I will also apologize to this forum for also bringing un-necessary drama. This could have been discussed in private.

John.

Actually, I'm glad you posted it or we might have never seen it - it's an interesting item. That's me though.

We're working on the last one right now, and it has an SS chapter which I'm doing. I could go further into this rifle but I have to save some stuff for the big reveal...

 

[bnz41john]

Just shoot me a Pm in the future John. Remind me "I'm that pain in the a$$ guy that thinks you sell fake ****" and I'll remember you(just kidding ) and I'll give you any information I have.


@ Farb
I'm going to be buying the new K98 books here soon. I love K98 rifles and have been out of the game way too long. One thing is exactly like it used to be, fakes are everywhere.

Haha I most certainly will!

Also super excited for the new book!

John.

 

[Bigdibbs88]

Monday morning quarterbacking here....but from what i see of the marking i like it. Like Farb said, not much to go on though

 

[mauser99]

Wednesday morning QB here. I just looked myself and see no issues with the barrel markings. What that barreled action is a depot re-barreled receiver done by SS depot 2. Using a commercially proofed barrel . Makes a lot of sense.

 

[mrfarb]

Wednesday morning liquid paper, to clarify barrels weren't proofed unless attached to a receiver so this assembly (bolt, barrel, receiver) would have been rebuilt and sent to Zella-Mehlis. Armorer spare barrels were never pre-proofed and neither were receivers. Bolts were as they are interchangeable.

 

[Hambone]

This thread is why I don't venture out to other K98k forums as there is too much "noise". The worst are those who don't know what they don't know and providing improperly vetted exspurt advize. It's frustrating, irritating, and a waste of time. I cannot offer anything more than what Farb set forth. I'm glad this got sorted out properly and Ncreptile gets a

 

[Loewe]

Fyi 10/22/2012

Mauser K98 K-98 98K 8mm AX 41 SS Death Head
Auction # 312915774
Please if you are the buyer or seller to see more helpful information.

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Current Bid $0.00 No Reserve!
Started at $700.00
Quantity 1 # of bids 0 Bid History

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15 minute rule
Location Knoxville, TN 37902
Start 10/22/2012 12:05:16 PM ET (This is a 7 day auction)

Ends On or After 10/25/2012 4:25:22 PM ET (GunBroker.com Official Time)


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Description for Item # 312915774


This is a Erma Erfurt Model 98 Bolt Action Rifle. Caliber 8mm with a 24" barrel. It is a Russian capture. Breech end of barrel marked "4537" and death head. The death head stamp is only a partial but the left side of the skull and crossed bones and the double rune and 2 are clearly shown. Receiver ring marked "ax / 41" and 4 waffenampts. Matching numbers on receiver, barrel and stock. Bolt and trigger guard hand etched "4537". Early butt plate with laminate stock. CONDITION: good with two repairs to the hand guard. Bore is good. The importer's mark is on the underside of the barrel at the muzzle.

You must be at least 21 years old to bid on this item.

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No international orders. The shipping charge will be actual UPS ground shipping and insurance from zip code 37902. We will contact the buyer after the close of the auction with the total of the winning bid plus shipping. Payment will be by certified check, personal check or money order. Payment by personal check will incur a delay of up to 10 business days to allow the check to clear. We will ship after receiving payment, a copy of a current FFL and a copy of proof of age. We will ship only to the address of the FFL holder.

The item may be returned for a refund of the original purchase price only within 14 days of receipt. It must be received here in the same condition as when shipped. Keep the original packing materials for use in a possible return. The buyer is responsible for return shipping and insurance.