AX 1940, Authentic Russian Capture?

[JustinWiseguy]

First off, I'm very new to K98 information and to the forum so apologies if I do anything wrong.
I just received a GunBroker purchase today, and I'm really concerned about the authenticity of this rifle. I'd like to say I have a very fundamental understanding of K98 information, but to be honest, I have no idea what I'm looking at on this rifle. It was advertised as numbers matching which you can clearly see doesn't hold up for the whole rifle. It has a cupped buttplate and I'm pretty sure from my research, this year is supposed to be flat. It also came with one of the K98 "holsters" for a lack of a better term, which clearly doesn't seem like it's from WWI or WWII and looks more like a reproduction. The eagles almost don't look fully stamped towards the bottom which looks weird to me. Basically a lot of stuff and more that doesn't add up. I don't believe any of this is the seller's fault, because he was good to deal with and clearly wasn't trying to mislead anyone. I think he bought it from someone and might not know a whole lot about these rifles.

My main question is if this gun is in any way an authentic German K98, and if any stamps/numbers/codes appear to be faked. I know ERMA rifles are considered uncommon or rare for certain codes so it's especially worrying for me. I'll attach photos from the GunBroker post since they have good lighting, but I will definitely take more and provide any other info if needed. Thank you for any insight you have!

 

[JustinWiseguy]

Part 2

 

[JustinWiseguy]

Part 3

 

[Herk1994]

There's nothing wrong with it, typical Russian Capture. Don't remove the shellac on the stock, leave it just as it is. It is matching as a Russian Capture, not matching as it left the factory obviously.

EDIT: You did fine here, but your willingness to spend first, despite your apparent concern and worry, is exactly what some of the immoral sellers on gunbroker are looking for, more specifically just the right person they want to scam. If you're ever in doubt, ask BEFORE you buy. I'm not trying to be rude, but it'll save you in the future. Ask me how I know..... been there before

 

[Cuca20]

I’m sorry but your question feels strange you’re buying RC rifle and expecting for all numbers to match? The receiver and barrel (most likely) are WWII German manufactured parts for sure. Then, what Russians did - they took weapons that they captured apart, dropped in the boxes the same parts from other rifles mixed with newly manufactured, reblued them and eventually put them together just grabbing random parts from the box without caring about serials. Then EPed them to match on a particular rifle. They did the same with some of their weapons as well post war. SVT rifles is a good example. So, answering your question, part of the rifle is authentic German WWII piece, while others might be, might be not. Should be a decent shooter though.

 

[JustinWiseguy]

There's nothing wrong with it, typical Russian Capture. Don't remove the shellac on the stock, leave it just as it is.

That settles my nerves a lot, thank you so much! I'd never mess with anything on the rifle, I want to keep it as it is. My whole objective was to get one solely for collecting purposes, maybe shoot five rounds (just to say I have) and save it for display. Might get a cheaper Yugo or something for shooting once in a while.

 

[JustinWiseguy]

I’m sorry but your question feels strange you’re buying RC rifle and waiting for all numbers to match? The receiver and barrel (most likely) are WWII German manufactured parts for sure. Then, what Russians did - they took weapons that they captured apart, dropped in the boxes the same parts from other rifles mixed with newly manufactured, reblued them and eventually put them together just grabbing random parts from the box without caring about serials. Then EPed them to match on a particular rifle. They did the same with some of their weapons as well post war. SVT rifles is a good example. So, answering your question, part of the rifle is authentic German WWII piece, while others might be, might be not. Should be a decent shooter though.

Yeah I understand, it was hard to ask all I wanted to without writing a whole essay. I suppose I'm mostly concerned with the main parts of the gun having authentic German markings. I hope I got a decent deal although I feel like I overpayed for a Russian capture. I don't mind telling everyone what I paid because I'd rather know if I did spend a little too much. The issue is it's so hard to find them locally, and I was willing to spend a bit more just to have one. Thanks for the response

 

[Cuca20]

Yeah I understand, it was hard to ask all I wanted to without writing a whole essay. I suppose I'm mostly concerned with the main parts of the gun having authentic German markings. I hope I got a decent deal although I feel like I overpayed for a Russian capture. I don't mind telling everyone what I paid because I'd rather know if I did spend a little too much. The issue is it's so hard to find them locally, and I was willing to spend a bit more just to have one. Thanks for the response

Feel free to share the $ if you want to, this community might be harsh, but you’ll get free honest opinion. Staying longer with this forum will get you to the understanding what is good & collectible vs what’s not so much. Get Admins’ books in 3 Volumes, follow Trader section (in case you want a trully collectible piece - RC are not really keepers, more like shooter guns) and you’ll figure out things pretty quickly.

 

[JustinWiseguy]

Feel free to share the $ if you want to, this community might be harsh, but you’ll get free honest opinion. Staying longer with this forum will get you to the understanding what is good & collectible vs what’s not so much. Get Admins’ books in 3 Volumes, follow Trader section (in case you want a trully collectible piece - RC are not really keepers, more like shooter guns) and you’ll figure out things pretty quickly.

Will-do, that sounds reasonable. I don't mind harsh responses as long as they're truthful. I plan on making use of the forum's resources since it appears like this is one of the only bastions of real knowledge on these rifles. I really appreciate everyone's feedback and it comforts me to know that the ax code isn't fake.

 

[agentcq]

I can say that the rifle was certainly a Russian Capture. These rifles were forced matched and refurbished by the Soviets. Generally the only parts that are original to the rifle are the barrel, receiver and rear sight base. All other parts are from other WWII produced K98's (sometimes the odd part of a VZ24 or Gew98), hence why all the numbers do not match. However, the Soviets did 'force' match certain parts during the refurb process with an electropen. Generally the Bolt, mag plate were forced matched and they generally stamped the left side of the stock. Sometimes they took the extra time to force match other small parts, but this process was random.

Generally the receiver was stamped with an 'X' or some people say Crossed Mosin Rifles, the cleaning rod will be removed, capture screws removed and if the rifle had a sight hood - often it would often be removed.

The butt plate would be blued (originally in the white during WWII) and the stock take down disc would be painted or blued as well (originally in the white during WWII).

I only saw one shipment where the rifles came with 'extra parts' in the crate. These included an original pair of K98 mag pouches, an original sight hood, an original cleaning rod and some Soviet styled oiler with a few other tools.

When these were quite plentiful about 10-15 years ago, many people enhanced these rifles. Removed the shellac, MM parts such as band to make them more correct and removed bluing/paint from the stock disc and butt plate. However, I would recommend just leaving these rifles as is...they have their own history and many rare codes/makers and other information can be gleamed from the barrel, receiver and rear base.

Now on to your rifle: Cleaning rod is a reproduction and I believe that the original shellac was once removed from your rifle and that someone re-stained or re-applied shellac. My reasoning behind this is the color is not quite right, the stock disc is in the white and there is no pealing or cracking of the shellac. Otherwise a decent RC with a relatively scare maker code.

I do think that one day the Forum should have an "RC" section to discuss these rifles. They are a variant in their own right and are often looked down on by purist collectors.

 

[k98dave]

Russian captures (RC's) are what many get just for shooters and also used by many reenactors groups as generally there is nothing really collectable about them other than some early or unusual codes. Prices have gone up as the supply has dwindled compared to what it was 10 years ago. Soviet 91/30's would be more collectable in my opinion as for the most part they may have been refurbished but still original for less $$ although they have gone up as well as supply dried up.

 

[mto7464]

Russian captures (RC's) are what many get just for shooters and also used by many reenactors groups as generally there is nothing really collectable about them other than some early or unusual codes. Prices have gone up as the supply has dwindled compared to what it was 10 years ago. Soviet 91/30's would be more collectable in my opinion as for the most part they may have been refurbished but still original for less $$ although they have gone up as well as supply dried up.

Time has now shown that the RC's are in a collectable category. I never thought it would happen either. The 91/30 really are no more "original" just done by the original owners.

 

[JustinWiseguy]

I can say that the rifle was certainly a Russian Capture. These rifles were forced matched and refurbished by the Soviets. Generally the only parts that are original to the rifle are the barrel, receiver and rear sight base. All other parts are from other WWII produced K98's (sometimes the odd part of a VZ24 or Gew98), hence why all the numbers do not match. However, the Soviets did 'force' match certain parts during the refurb process with an electropen. Generally the Bolt, mag plate were forced matched and they generally stamped the left side of the stock. Sometimes they took the extra time to force match other small parts, but this process was random.

Generally the receiver was stamped with an 'X' or some people say Crossed Mosin Rifles, the cleaning rod will be removed, capture screws removed and if the rifle had a sight hood - often it would often be removed.

The butt plate would be blued (originally in the white during WWII) and the stock take down disc would be painted or blued as well (originally in the white during WWII).

I only saw one shipment where the rifles came with 'extra parts' in the crate. These included an original pair of K98 mag pouches, an original sight hood, an original cleaning rod and some Soviet styled oiler with a few other tools.

When these were quite plentiful about 10-15 years ago, many people enhanced these rifles. Removed the shellac, MM parts such as band to make them more correct and removed bluing/paint from the stock disc and butt plate. However, I would recommend just leaving these rifles as is...they have their own history and many rare codes/makers and other information can be gleamed from the barrel, receiver and rear base.

Now on to your rifle: Cleaning rod is a reproduction and I believe that the original shellac was once removed from your rifle and that someone re-stained or re-applied shellac. My reasoning behind this is the color is not quite right, the stock disc is in the white and there is no pealing or cracking of the shellac. Otherwise a decent RC with a relatively scare maker code.

I do think that one day the Forum should have an "RC" section to discuss these rifles. They are a variant in their own right and are often looked down on by purist collectors.

Thanks for the info! Part of the reason I was so skeptical as to if this rifle was a legitimate Russian capture is because, like you were saying, a lot of things about the rifle didn't quite add up while comparing to other RC examples. It was hard for me to verify as someone who has a fraction of the knowledge. I'll definitely keep what you said in mind when looking for more K98s to add to my new collection

 

[JustinWiseguy]

Russian captures (RC's) are what many get just for shooters and also used by many reenactors groups as generally there is nothing really collectable about them other than some early or unusual codes. Prices have gone up as the supply has dwindled compared to what it was 10 years ago. Soviet 91/30's would be more collectable in my opinion as for the most part they may have been refurbished but still original for less $$ although they have gone up as well as supply dried up.

Time has now shown that the RC's are in a collectable category. I never thought it would happen either. The 91/30 really are no more "original" just done by the original owners.

Being fresh into looking for these rifles, I've only been accustomed to seeing any German K98 online for no less than $600. It pains me to hear from the more senior folks at gun stores that they used to buy milsurp firearms from catalogs for $60 or so. One veteran told me he bought a crate of Mosins fresh from import for about $1,000 and later sold some of them for a hefty profit. I'm sure it's come as a surprise to the collecting communities that something such as Russian/Yugo captures are becoming increasingly scarce and valuable. It's very discouraging for someone younger like me because I find old rifles are vastly more enjoyable to shoot as compared to something like an AR-15, which is regulated so heavily in my state.

 

[mto7464]

I don't where you were getting your comparisons from on RC but that is a text book example. I ordered or bought several in the days they were coming in from overseas. The good ones looked like yours and had pristine bores. Sadly I sold them all for a profit, paying 200 selling for 300 and thinking I did well.

 

[k98dave]

Prices of RC's have been rising over time but I think it's mostly driven by the great increase in values of original unmolested collectables more than supply. RC's can be great shooters and a relatively inexpensive way for someone to put together a collection of various makers and production years. But bottom line is they are still basically parts guns. I enjoyed picking up GI bring backs that were later sporterized but partially matching and restoring as much as possible to their original conditions as a hobby. Stocks were always the hardest item to get but even with that I restored several for about the same money as RC where nothing was correct. Still have several of those.

 

[mto7464]

I won't really argue with you on original vs RC, I mean there is no comparison. It's a sub group. Look at m1 garands. Most of them now are parts guns as they came from the DCM and later CMP. They are still valuable, not nearly so as the very rare original as built m1, which I think are much more rare then it appears since they are easy to restore and could not be brought back as booty. RC's are still very much part of the history of the war and into the cold war. I wish I had kept all mine, but I will not buy one unless the price is right. Now lets talk (not) of Mithchell's. lol

 

[M1903A3]

Many collectors of today started out with their first gun being a Russian Capture! They can be a great exercise for a new collector in identifying the origin of all the parts used in it. As was already said they are often good shooters, and I think they are ideal for reenactors who might get them wet or dirty. They can be a way to get a lower cost gun as an entry level intro to serious collecting of more original examples.

 

[mrfarb]

Just wanted to comment on the thought that this forum is “harsh”. It can seem harsh whenever you get the bare naked truth about anything. Some people are more sensitive than others to reality, and to them the harshness is stinging. For someone truly open to learning the harshness is welcome- some who weren’t ready for that smack in the face reality recoil and fight - but I’ll say even some of those guys were eventually enlightened and participate here regularly and in good stead. Your accepting attitude speaks well to being a good collector of 98k’s, and your first one posted is a good example to own.

Many Russian Capture rifles were cleaned and restored to look more German, and rifles like this one will one day be sought after collectibles in their own right imo.

 

[JustinWiseguy]

Many collectors of today started out with their first gun being a Russian Capture! They can be a great exercise for a new collector in identifying the origin of all the parts used in it. As was already said they are often good shooters, and I think they are ideal for reenactors who might get them wet or dirty. They can be a way to get a lower cost gun as an entry level intro to serious collecting of more original examples.

That's absolutely the interesting part about mixed-part rifles is even though they don't hold as much monetary value today, some parts theoretically could be from different rifles that were used in the famous conflicts of war. That's obviously wishful thinking but the thought alone is insanely interesting to me. I'm sure a some people find excitement in finding rifles with rare codes even if some parts are mismatched. Regardless of that thought, old military things are just super cool!