660 1940 K98K is serial number outside of known range?

[capt14k]

Attached is pics of my first Mauser. The serial number is 770n. From what I have read the last serial number was 505n. Or am I not reading the known range correctly. The stock is only marked 770 but there is H markings in the stock. Is this normal or has the stock been faked. Everything seems to match except the bolt. All parts of the bolt are marked 8537 and there seems to be a flying eagle mark. Waffen marks also look correct WaA623. I am a complete novice when it comes to Mausers so I am looking for validation of my research. Any help would be appreciated especially with the serial number range.

Link to images

 

[Absolut]

Most time the "highest serial number known" is based on the highest observed. If yours is higher, your rifle now ranks number 1

 

[capt14k]

Most time the "highest serial number known" is based on the highest observed. If yours is higher, your rifle now ranks number 1

So I am reading the range correctly? 770n is now the highest known for 1940 steyr 660? Or is it possible that something is faked and not correct with the rifle? It's a shame that one has to worry so much about fakes with the K98k but it seems a few ruined it for many with their forgeries.

 

[Slowburn]

Too bad, but to me the receiver and barrel look scrubbed, there's no firing proofs and I'm not sure about the numbering. I'm curious what the experts will have to say.

 

[Loewe]

n-block is the last known block for 660/1940, but this is not the highest known.

You would have to do some decent pictures to get an evaluation on the rifle, these pictures are very poor and too bright. Try without flash or outside in the shade. Humpers (forgeries) are not a serious problem in the hobby, not yet at least, most rifles can be authenticated with just a moderate amount of research (real research, examining rifles, knowing what is "typical", using good rifles to judge others by, etc...); it doesn't take a decade to know what you are doing today.

In the 1980's it took that long and more and many still didn't know what they were doing. Today you can probably get pretty good in 6 months if you stick with it and take it serious.

For a brief history of the rifles made by SDP, scroll down to 1940:

http://www.militaryriflejournal.com/

 

[capt14k]

n-block is the last known block for 660/1940, but this is not the highest known.

You would have to do some decent pictures to get an evaluation on the rifle, these pictures are very poor and too bright. Try without flash or outside in the shade. Humpers (forgeries) are not a serious problem in the hobby, not yet at least, most rifles can be authenticated with just a moderate amount of research (real research, examining rifles, knowing what is "typical", using good rifles to judge others by, etc...); it doesn't take a decade to know what you are doing today.

In the 1980's it took that long and more and still many still didn't know what they were doing. Today you can probably get pretty good in 6 months if you stick with it and take it serious.

For a brief history of the rifles made by SDP, scroll down to 1940:

http://www.militaryriflejournal.com/

I was trying to get as close as possible. After looking at them again it is the flourescent lights overhead causing the problem. I didn't use flash but on the picture with the 660 and 1940 you can see the mirror image of the 2 flourescent lights overhead. I will retake tomorrow. Is there any specific area I should focus on?

 

[capt14k]

Too bad, but to me the receiver and barrel look scrubbed, there's no firing proofs and I'm not sure about the numbering. I'm curious what the experts will have to say.

I am curious myself too. I did see a Radom 1940 660 on this site and it did have proof marks on the barrel that I do not have on mine. I am going to try and break the rifle down and take pics tomorrow this time with the overhead flourescent lights off. I think the receiver has the proper proof marks but I maybe wrong I am a complete novice to k98k's but they do fascinate me. I bought the book Backbone of the Wermacht so hopefully that will help in my education, but it is always best to have a good teacher which this forum seems to have some of the best.

 

[Loewe]

Both the barrel and receiver should have a FP, the rifle should have e/623 x4 on the right receiver and a blank siderail. It could be an "R" receiver, the right receiver will tell if so, the barrel code would be nice if you disassemble. It is an SDP barrel, but if there is a problem the BC can often help.

The stock is the most important thing to take good pictures of, it will tell you the most about the rifle, - but unless they are reasonable clear pictures, that show the markings clearly, it won't help a great deal.

There are a lot of variation to SDP production, possibly more than any other, but the basics do not change.

I was trying to get as close as possible. After looking at them again it is the flourescent lights overhead causing the problem. I didn't use flash but on the picture with the 660 and 1940 you can see the mirror image of the 2 flourescent lights overhead. I will retake tomorrow. Is there any specific area I should focus on?

 

[capt14k]

More Pics

Sorry for the delay. It definitely does not have the 4 Waffen Marks on the right side of the receiver unless they are being covered. I havent had time to break the gun down. There are two waffen marks on the right side just before the upper hand guard starts and on the left side just before the upper hand guard a letter M and a little further back looks like a 10. On the left side there are two waffen marks on the barrell just in front of the receiver one on top of the other, there is also a sun looking mark and a 770n in the same area . Where the barrell meets the receiver there is a 79. The top of the Receiver is marked 660 1940 and the left side has 770n. Other marks on part I think are clear. The stock has a letter H and below 770 and looks like waffen marks on right side of stock near firing pin retainer. I hope the pics are better this time.

 

[bda]

I'm curious what the star symbol on the barrel is.

 

[Loewe]

If it lacks the fireproof on the barrel and receiver, and the four acceptance stamps on the RR, then it has probably been "de-nazified", probably served with a foreign country after the war. Some of the Balkan countries, Rumania etc.. used scrubbed German rifles for a time, though it is usually pretty obvious they were scrubbed (these are often quite decent rifles, better than rc anyway, a little abused, but generally original finish and many matching parts). If it was done neatly, maybe some one else, a previous owner removed them "kinder and gentler", but the acceptance pattern on barreled receivers did not change significantly until late 1941.

 

[capt14k]

The Star Symbol

The same star symbol I see on the top of the barrel of the 29/40 Rifle pictured in Mauser Military Rifles of the World on page 226 if that helps

 

[capt14k]

If it lacks the fireproof on the barrel and receiver, and the four acceptance stamps on the RR, then it has probably been "de-nazified", probably served with a foreign country after the war. Some of the Balkan countries, Rumania etc.. used scrubbed German rifles for a time, though it is usually pretty obvious they were scrubbed (these are often quite decent rifles, better than rc anyway, a little abused, but generally original finish and many matching parts). If it was done neatly, maybe some one else, a previous owner removed them "kinder and gentler", but the acceptance pattern on barreled receivers did not change significantly until late 1941.

The firing symbols are on the left side of the barrel but they are not on the receiver but the 770 matches on both which is odd. Because why would they scrub the receiver and not the barrel. It has the same 79 marking as in the book on the top of receicer as well.

 

[Loewe]

Post 38-39

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?16864-Steyr-Daimler-Puch-AG-(660-bnz)-Production/page4

The same star symbol I see on the top of the barrel of the 29/40 Rifle pictured in Mauser Military Rifles of the World on page 226 if that helps

 

[bda]

So the star would have been applied after the original non-conformance was corrected, if I am understanding that correctly.

 

[Loewe]

Yes, assuming the theory is right, the markings would indicate a correctable flaw was accepted. It is so common with SDP, it fits in with similar occurrences with several Imperial era makers, which routinely have C/RC acceptance over normal acceptance stamps. Of course, no one knows the purpose with certainty. Such records probably do not exist anymore.

 

[capt14k]

Inside Pics

I broke the Rifle Down. The barrel is marked 8740RD. Receiver has a half moon, a swirl, and a number 4 and a box around something I can't quite make out and down near the bottom another star like mark just like on the barrel. The upper handguard is marked 770 the lower handgaurd area of the stock is also marked 770 and looks like an eagle head. The barrel on the left side has the third waffen mark. There is also a number 4 on the barrel. The trigger has a waffen mark on one side and a 70 on the other. The right side of the receiver has no waffen marks It doesn't look scrubbed but I could be wrong. Some pics didn't come out as good as I thought but I will post them anyways.

Everything seems to function perfect on the rifle. It broke down and went back together with ease. I cycles perfect. The lack of waffen marks on the receiver is very perplexing

 

[capt14k]

Barrel Code

Am I correct in that 87 40 RD on the barrel means 87 was the steel provider code 40 was the year it was made and RD is the barrel maker Rheinmetall Düsseldorf, as per Graf. which is correct for a 1940 Steyr?

 

[Loewe]

No, the "87" is the lot number, 40 is the date of manufacture and the "RD" is the blank source (Radom probably, a left over raw forging sent to Steyr for finishing). The acceptance tells you the maker, the finisher, which is SDP (e/623).

As per graf? I assume this information is from a post several years ago? That guy didn't know anything...

Am I correct in that 87 40 RD on the barrel means 87 was the steel provider code 40 was the year it was made and RD is the barrel maker Rheinmetall Düsseldorf, as per Graf. which is correct for a 1940 Steyr?

 

[capt14k]

Last Pics

This is where I found the barrel code info. However I now assume it is incorrect. I've been trying to research as much as I can.

http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-4914.html

I was however able to get some better pics.

Going from front of barrel back into the bottom of the receiver the marks I see in order are 1,5,6,crescent shape, 4, V, 3, crescent shape, oval, swirl, 4 and a square with a diagonal line through it. Not sure if this means anything but they are all shown in pics

I included pics showing every mark I could find including a number 7 (trigger assembly) and the 70 on the magazine spring. Also on the receiver I included a pic of where waffen marks could have been (scratches) but it is an area that is covered by the stock. I hope I have included enough info and pics for proper evaluation whether the rifle is all legit and whether it is outside the known serial number range. If so does this mean there are at least a couple hundred more rifles that Steyr made in 1940?