1939 G29(o) - With some interesting features!
- Thread starter T1D.Operator
- Start date
T1D.Operator
Well-known member
Thank you for your opinion. Do you have any photos of the lk5? Also, what should I look for on the bolt handle? And for the handguard, did you mean on the left side on the top handguard? Close to the sight?
Sorry to ask so many questions, I am literally not an expert in these. My world of expertise is Communist Bloc/Cold War firearms lol. And yeah, I got this for cheaper than your run of the mill K98.
Besides that, I’ll try and do the full takedown later still. Can’t hurt, right? Plus even if the S mark may mean nothing, can’t hurt to know what it is. I am comfortable with it as well, it’s just mainly if I got a horrid fake or not lol. But I’m seeing a lot of doubt into that, and it may be leaning towards a rework. Either in the field or not.
I will say, I had no idea about troop reworks, only depot reworks. So I had no idea this one could’ve possibly not been a depot lol. It was just a theory I made from what I’ve seen!
joryfreeburg
Senior Member
Nicely put Rob…
Here's a pic of what the lk5 marking looks like on a captured French MAS36 I have. Naturally not trying to draw any parallels as it's a completely different gun but just giving you an idea of the placement of that marking and what it looks like. It may be there's nothing on your stock It was just a wild guess..
Look at the very rear of the buttstock near the buttplate.
The number on the handguard is the one in this picture. It's just an odd placement and I don't know that I've seen one like it before. There's a chance it's fine but I don't like it personally.
With regard to the bolt I'm referring to the added number on the bolt handle. I've seen plenty of scrubbed bolts, but the renumbering on the handle is a little odd and it just looks a little off to me. Again there's a chance it could be fine but my gut reaction is suspicious.
T1D.Operator
Well-known member
Sadly, I don't have any visible LK5 mark. If there ever was one even. Besides that, I've looked the stock over. The only thing I can do is remove the stock itself. Just from everything I've researched so far, especially in my deep dives, it seems at least like a real G12/34, just it has seen action and has been worked on.
Just my take.
It's definitely a 12/34 that has been reworked at some level. I think any lingering questions will surround whether or not all of the added/changed serial numbers present are authentic period force matching or post-war boinking. Unfortunately, on that front there may never be a way to conclusively say one way or the other. If you are happy with it, that's really all that matters.
T1D.Operator
Well-known member
Atleast that gives some level of positivity. Doubt you see a reworked G12/34 anywhere. Maybe one of the ones in the database is similar. I’ll probably be doing that later today to trt and see what’s different.
Are there any other things to look for to maybe determine anything? Did reworks at a depot or troop level leave any marks specifically?
joryfreeburg
Senior Member
Most depot rework did leave their mark, but not all. Here is a rifle in my collection that was clearly German depot reworked and depot level renumbering but no definitive mark to tell which depot did the rework…
Romanian VZ24 Germanized
Here is a recent pick up for me. It seems like finding a unscrubbed King Carol crested VZ24 is tough to find on its own. This one is matching with an intacted crest and has gone threw one of the German depots. I can’t find a depot mark on the rifle. The German modifications that I noticed...
www.k98kforum.com
Here are a couple more of my rifles where the depot left their mark which IMHO helps validate the reworking that has been done to the rifles…
Sauer S/147K #6685 Magdeburg Rework
I know there are quite a few here that know I purchased this rifle from the other thread that was posted here in this forum. I really wanted to buy this rifle for two main reasons. I have never owned a K date before or a reworked K98K. This rifle covered two of my wants in one rifle. I am...
www.k98kforum.com
1918 Amberg 98m 7153 f Naumburg
Here is a rifle that I recently adopted from Chuck. It was posted here not long ago by him. I could have either added on to Chuck’s photo spread like I did in the WMO 98m or just repost with all my photos. I am hoping by posting a few more details, I will get a little more information. I...
www.k98kforum.com
Others more experienced here please correct me if I am wrong, but I would say troop level work done by a field armorer never has a definite mark left on the rifle to show who is responsible for the rework. Usually just armorer marked parts or reused parts with lined out numbers, but sometimes the old serial number of the part just left untouched….
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Warrior1354
ax - hole
Yeah, this category of collecting can actually be. How do I put it? Very interesting, but also with a bunch of what if, and why. When you start studying each depot facility, or a certain rework. None are identical from each other. It seems like each facility had their own concept of craftsmanship, or worksmanship. I personally have two German reworked vz24 carbines. No depot proofs, and both rifles show signs of german modifications. And both are not identical from each other. Low level rework, field repair, field armorer did the work, etc. Who really knows who did the work? But when you dive into this genre of collecting. The key is, not to overpay for them. Or mainly pay factory original matching price tags. As a big collector of depot items told me at the SOS show. If you ever have to sell it, and you have to explain three paragraphs of information. On why something was renumbered. You've already lost most of your audience. As a collector who enjoys these, the fun part is. You're getting a very unique, and cool variation. For half or a third of the cost of an original factory gun. And on the side note if you have not bought the volume two 98k books yet. You're losing a lot of information on these. There is an entire section in those books that explain so much on these types of reworks, and depot guns.
T1D.Operator
Well-known member
The only way I’d say why, is that this G12/34 has seen combat. It definitely isn’t as clean as the others I’ve seen online. Whether it be from Legacy or Pre98. Will agree as well it’s unique and I like the history on it. Who knows what it’s gone through. I got this rifle for the cost of a RC capture all in comparison, so I’d like to think I did fairly well on it! I guess we can say that this rifle
For @joryfreeburg, I will say that only the floor plate was scratched as seen, but that kicks it to me that this was a troop or field rework. I’m doubting the depot level now, since virtually everything else is correct. If anyone wants to challenge me on this, I am all ears. I’m just leaning on “this isn’t faked” more so train.
Besides that, are the K98k books still available? Would be cool to add to my personal library.
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
Paul, thank you very much for the many old pictures and also to everyone else for their opinions on this topic.
For me personally it is important that things are not judged too quickly. But I don't want to say that we shouldn't mention negative things, the different opinions are very important and just in this way we learn something.
In the last months I have seen two rifles that were unfortunately misjudged. The unusual (but original) parts were replaced with spare parts and from that point on a rare collector's item was destroyed.
@ Justinian
The bolt is unusual and it made me suspicious too. Other things show signs of being reworked by an troop armorer, so I don't want to judge the bolt so fast. The first thing I noticed was the stock disc, I didn't look at the bolt until later. I had posted the historical document because the stock disc rework was important at the time and it's also related to the bolt.
"In order to avoid the bending and breaking of the firing pin tips, the “device for disassembling and assembling the bolt” can be attached to the carbine (p.) in the troop armory. The attachment has to be done as with the K98k."
My grandpa was in the Luftwaffe from 1941 and I had my first K98k about 20 years ago. When I had problems with the bolt, he helped me with it. I have forgotten a lot of things, but I clearly remember that he pointed out the stock disc to me and that I should use it to disassemble the bolt. I remember this because I had called the stock discs “Stempelplatte” and he said that's nonsense, it's to disassemble the bolt. I had to think about it because of own experiences.
During my service I also spent time in the armory. But we didn't have K98k, we had G3 and later G36 rifles. Our recruits and soldiers never bent or broke the firing pins, they otherwise caused damage and work. We used a similar cleaning kit like for the K98k to pull wicks with a chain through the barrel to clean it. These wicks were also used for the 9mm pistol and the rifle required some wicks to be removed so that it could be pulled through the tight rifle barrel. We instructed the soldiers again and again and pointed this out before each time we cleaned the weapons, but every time someone managed to do it again. If you were lucky, it just got stuck and sometimes the chain got broken, then it had to be pressed out of the barrel with a grease gun and the subsequent cleaning took another 3 hours. That was really annoying and dangerous when you're on duty. Unfortunately we didn't have a solution for it, like the stock disc rework in 1941/1942.
The stock disc probably didn't completely prevent the problems with the firing pin, but it certainly reduced it. Some spare parts were extremely scarce and lists of shortage production were kept like this one:
The spare parts got ordered on July 8, 1942 and the list is from April 1943. The third spare part "Auszieher" is extractors and 150,000 of them were ordered - 27,500 were delivered by April 1943. "Kammer" means bolt and of 30,000 only 3,000 had been delivered up to that point. The "Röhrchen zur Platte" is the part for assembling the stock disc. Of the 110,00 ordered, 11,000 were delivered by April 1943.
The list is just an example and spare parts were already in short supply in 1941, the armaments were sometimes redirected and this had a major impact like in 1941 on the production of K98k and their spare parts, as the priority was redirected to other armaments.
The following is a guess, maybe something similar happened. There may have been problems with the bolt of this rifle and when it was passed on to the armorer, the damaged bolt was lost. At that time, and perhaps even at the front, there were more important things than removing an old serial number and that's why the armorer's assistant stamped the bolt handle (similar like G.33/40). As we have already seen, there was a shortage of spare parts and when weapons could not be repaired at that time, such parts were used to repair other weapons. It got a "new" bolt and the armorer assistant reworked the stock with the discs. There are many parts for the stock discs at the order, the highest number behind the extractors and usually these parts doesn't get lost, they got them mostly for the reworks.
What is written above is just a theory and nothing more. Maybe it happened that way, or maybe it was someone after 1945. Mistmatch is a mismatch in this case, but you said that you only paid as much as for an RC and you can be happy. I have a good feeling with it.
I based my theory on real events. I have some documents about it and one is from 1943 from Armeeoberkommando 4. They complain that K98k are not handed over completely for repair and therefore parts are lost. Floorplates are particularly often mentioned, but also other parts. Special orders are therefore issued and Field Marshal Keitel mentions in this context the Luftwaffe, explicitly also the Luftwaffe Felddivision, in his sloppy handling of weapons.
I saw that you uploaded the photos outside the forum and I ask you to upload the photos to the forum too. It's always a shame when the photos disappear at some point and these important contributions become worthless.
Loewe has uploaded the old photos and that was great. You can learn a lot from his posts in the forum and that's why it's worth reading old topics and looking at the Pic Sticky area. The books are still available, here is a post in the forum: Karabiner Vol.II A/B 98k Book Sets
For me personally it is important that things are not judged too quickly. But I don't want to say that we shouldn't mention negative things, the different opinions are very important and just in this way we learn something.
In the last months I have seen two rifles that were unfortunately misjudged. The unusual (but original) parts were replaced with spare parts and from that point on a rare collector's item was destroyed.
@ Justinian
The bolt is unusual and it made me suspicious too. Other things show signs of being reworked by an troop armorer, so I don't want to judge the bolt so fast. The first thing I noticed was the stock disc, I didn't look at the bolt until later. I had posted the historical document because the stock disc rework was important at the time and it's also related to the bolt.
"In order to avoid the bending and breaking of the firing pin tips, the “device for disassembling and assembling the bolt” can be attached to the carbine (p.) in the troop armory. The attachment has to be done as with the K98k."
My grandpa was in the Luftwaffe from 1941 and I had my first K98k about 20 years ago. When I had problems with the bolt, he helped me with it. I have forgotten a lot of things, but I clearly remember that he pointed out the stock disc to me and that I should use it to disassemble the bolt. I remember this because I had called the stock discs “Stempelplatte” and he said that's nonsense, it's to disassemble the bolt. I had to think about it because of own experiences.
During my service I also spent time in the armory. But we didn't have K98k, we had G3 and later G36 rifles. Our recruits and soldiers never bent or broke the firing pins, they otherwise caused damage and work. We used a similar cleaning kit like for the K98k to pull wicks with a chain through the barrel to clean it. These wicks were also used for the 9mm pistol and the rifle required some wicks to be removed so that it could be pulled through the tight rifle barrel. We instructed the soldiers again and again and pointed this out before each time we cleaned the weapons, but every time someone managed to do it again. If you were lucky, it just got stuck and sometimes the chain got broken, then it had to be pressed out of the barrel with a grease gun and the subsequent cleaning took another 3 hours. That was really annoying and dangerous when you're on duty. Unfortunately we didn't have a solution for it, like the stock disc rework in 1941/1942.
The stock disc probably didn't completely prevent the problems with the firing pin, but it certainly reduced it. Some spare parts were extremely scarce and lists of shortage production were kept like this one:
The spare parts got ordered on July 8, 1942 and the list is from April 1943. The third spare part "Auszieher" is extractors and 150,000 of them were ordered - 27,500 were delivered by April 1943. "Kammer" means bolt and of 30,000 only 3,000 had been delivered up to that point. The "Röhrchen zur Platte" is the part for assembling the stock disc. Of the 110,00 ordered, 11,000 were delivered by April 1943.
The list is just an example and spare parts were already in short supply in 1941, the armaments were sometimes redirected and this had a major impact like in 1941 on the production of K98k and their spare parts, as the priority was redirected to other armaments.
The following is a guess, maybe something similar happened. There may have been problems with the bolt of this rifle and when it was passed on to the armorer, the damaged bolt was lost. At that time, and perhaps even at the front, there were more important things than removing an old serial number and that's why the armorer's assistant stamped the bolt handle (similar like G.33/40). As we have already seen, there was a shortage of spare parts and when weapons could not be repaired at that time, such parts were used to repair other weapons. It got a "new" bolt and the armorer assistant reworked the stock with the discs. There are many parts for the stock discs at the order, the highest number behind the extractors and usually these parts doesn't get lost, they got them mostly for the reworks.
What is written above is just a theory and nothing more. Maybe it happened that way, or maybe it was someone after 1945. Mistmatch is a mismatch in this case, but you said that you only paid as much as for an RC and you can be happy. I have a good feeling with it.
I based my theory on real events. I have some documents about it and one is from 1943 from Armeeoberkommando 4. They complain that K98k are not handed over completely for repair and therefore parts are lost. Floorplates are particularly often mentioned, but also other parts. Special orders are therefore issued and Field Marshal Keitel mentions in this context the Luftwaffe, explicitly also the Luftwaffe Felddivision, in his sloppy handling of weapons.
I saw that you uploaded the photos outside the forum and I ask you to upload the photos to the forum too. It's always a shame when the photos disappear at some point and these important contributions become worthless.
Loewe has uploaded the old photos and that was great. You can learn a lot from his posts in the forum and that's why it's worth reading old topics and looking at the Pic Sticky area. The books are still available, here is a post in the forum: Karabiner Vol.II A/B 98k Book Sets
T1D.Operator
Well-known member
Gotcha, thank you Stephan for this wealth of knowledge. I should try doing my own photo catalog then and post them here. Thank you as well for the links to the books. Last I looked none were available. I also appreciate the history of your grandfather and more so on the K98k rifle overall. I studied history at university, so it is always interesting to see and learn more. For all we know, maybe I'll do a deep dive into the German Archives myself when I'm tracing my lineage! Most of my family was with Rommel's group in Africa, and I have some photos as well somewhere. I'd be quite intrigued to see any information you have if you're willing to share.
Maybe I should take a deeper dive into the bolt. For all we know, it could've just been scrubbed and then thrown on the side in the field, and no time was taken to stamp the top of the bolt. It doesn't look like a welded bolt handle either like you would see from Mosins when there are fake PU conversions. I'm luckily home for the next few days, so I'll try and do a full tear down and a full photographic presentation, hopefully anyway. Besides that, I can always try and take very detailed photos of the bolt.
I guess the question is this: Could a "depot" mark be put on the bolt at all? Or an Eagle? Or is the chance of that happening next to impossible? Mainly I'm asking what to look for.
Bolts are rarely marked to a replacing authority (depot that replaced them), though often marked to the origins/acceptance (mfg - acceptance/supplier) of the bolt. Typically things like this do not follow standard factory procedures, though it can vary widely. This is why humpers and dishonest flippers have the latitude they do, the "what if" question.
Generally the cruder the "salvaging" the more doubt is raised but certainly the lower the level the cruder is expected, but so too is the doubt risen. The Germans are not above crudity, there are WWI pictures of German ordnance workers repairing rifles in tiki huts with minimal tools. Certainly crude conditions existed in the battlefields of Eastern Europe, some are pictured in common books where dudes are doing work in the wilds of Russia, but collectors must deal in commonalities and standard methods supported-seen in numerous examples, - all others viewed with suspicion until proven or supported otherwise. This reflected in valuations and opinions expressed on collector forums by grumpy old men...
