1939 G29(o) - With some interesting features!

[T1D.Operator]

"Hello everyone,

As some of you may recall, I previously inquired about the identification of a particular rifle. At that time, I was on the lookout for unique rarities and stumbled upon this intriguing piece. With the assistance of @OzzMan and others, we delved into deciphering the details of this firearm to confirm its authenticity.

It has been identified as a complete G29(o), albeit with some peculiarities that suggest field repairs. Notably, the stock stands out as the most evident modification. Despite these alterations, the stock features matching numbers and correct waffenampts. Additionally, it bears a Waffenampt 4(?) evident in the stock discs. An interesting detail is the presence of an "S" mark on the removed stock buttplate—solely the letter 'S'. I've been attempting to determine the significance of this mark but haven't found conclusive information.

I'm reaching out to the community for assistance in understanding the unique aspects of this firearm. Your insights are greatly appreciated.

Here is the album. Hopefully, it works! If I need to post photos directly here, so that they can be viewed better, let me know! Thank you in advance!

Also, @diefrundsberger, here is a new addition to your research. And if anyone knows where I can find a correct sling, I'd appreciate it.

https://imgur.com/a/jWRSPrt

 

[T1D.Operator]

Through some more research, I think I was able to determine the story: It was reworked in 1939 at the Berlin-Suhler Waffenwerke, Suhl 1937-39 (WaA4 on Stock disc?). Due to this, this is why it features a correct stock but has been reworked I'd suspect. My source for it was this website in bold. If I am wrong, please correct me.

I still can't figure out the "S" stamping on the stock. Here are some better photos to help. Also, photos featuring the stock discs, and some unique photos showing the differences I believe between some of them. It is honestly the coolest rifle I own lol.

 

[Loewe]

While the referenced website maybe bold, it is an interpretation rather than fact.... though to be fair I did not read or need to read their full evaluation.... this rifle surfaced in 2011 and in 2014 sold on GB (LarryR) for $2400, which quite frankly is insane.

It is almost certainly a fraud, though to say BSW would be involved is even more absurd, - akin to Biden being fit for office. If you own it sell it, if you are considering it forget the idea.

But if you want some background on the rifle, while I can't share collector emails at the time, I can show the last auction it sold (Larry's 2014, but LR is blameless as far as I know, as it goes back to 2011 in this condition and Larry & Co are not researchers and flippers can't be held to the same standard as researchers and collectors)


WWII NAZI GERMAN LUFTWAFFE G.29o MAUSER RIFLE

ALL MATCHING NUMBERS-CODE 660 1939-VERY RARE

Auction # 399720705

This item has been Sold!

Current Bid

$2,375.00 No Reserve!



Started at

$299.00

Quantity

1



# of bids

25 Bid History

Time left

Listing has Ended
15 minute rule



Location

Copenhagen, NY 13626-3189

Start

3/14/2014 9:30:00 PM ET (This is a 10 day auction)





Ends On or After

3/24/2014 9:40:16 PM ET (GunBroker.com Official Time)







Seller

sreisel A+(12796)
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Winning Bidder

pekok A+(96)



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Seller must collect sales tax from the following states: NY 8%

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$35.00









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Inspection Period / Return Policy

Three Days from the date the item is received

Item Condition

Used

Requires FFL?

Yes

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Seller:

sreisel







Buyer:

pekok

Quantity: 1



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Description for Item # 399720705

Very good condition WWII Nazi German Luftwaffe issue G.29o Mauser rifle in 8mm. This very hard to find gun was built under contract by Steyr in Austria and has the “660” manufacturer code on the receiver and dated 1939. No model designation markings, as is correct. Rifle is NOT import marked and has all matching serial numbers right down to the screws. Note that the floorplate and bolt body have been force matched. Metal finish is original blue with some scattered brown and gray. Bore is bright and excellent with strong rifling. Stock has all original finish, never buffed or sanded, and shows some normal handling marks. Underside of buttstock has a crisp matching serial number cartouche and sharp clear Waffenampt cartouches. Left rear sight of handguard has a matching serial number cartouche as well. Rifle is also complete with correct original cleaning rod. A very rare Luftwaffe G.29o Mauser rifle that will make a fine advanced addition to your collection.



Pictures for Item # 399720705

 

[T1D.Operator]

If this is the case, then what’s the story in this? Everything on it has matched so far. This is the same rifle from Peter Ks article mentioned in his Fallschirmjager article (K98k Forum Post) that discusses it. I guess with all of this in mind, what’d be the story then? Beats me, I just think it’s still cool lol.

So I’m guessing by the sounds of it I should just sell it off? If so that’s a damn shame. I did get a few offers on it for AK’s already.

 

[chrisftk]

Aspects of this rifle certainly look boinked to me. (The external SN on the handguard is a hoot) My suspicion is that it was put together by someone looking to cash in on the perceived rarity of these.

Regarding it being in Peter K's article, some of the older publications on K98K and other rifles were groundbreaking at the time, but we've learned a lot in the interceding years (internet and many more data points help there-- the 12/34 is much better understood now.) Peters article makes it sound almost mythical like finding a G40K. He may very well have thought it was fine back then.

I tend to give more leeway than most in having faith in odd rifles being real, but I hope you aren't in this too much $$. Just my 2 cents.

 

[T1D.Operator]

Aspects of this rifle certainly look boinked to me. (The external SN on the handguard is a hoot) My suspicion is that it was put together by someone looking to cash in on the perceived rarity of these.

Regarding it being in Peter K's article, some of the older publications on K98K and other rifles were groundbreaking at the time, but we've learned a lot in the interceding years (internet and many more data points help there-- the 12/34 is much better understood now.) Peters article makes it sound almost mythical like finding a G40K. He may very well have thought it was fine back then.

I tend to give more leeway than most in having faith in odd rifles being real, but I hope you aren't in this too much $$. Just my 2 cents.

Luckily, I’m not. A shame, I really liked this Mauser too. I’m in it for fairly cheap so, I didn’t gain much or lose much of anything. I’ve at most lost the coolness of it. It’s truly a shame.

So if I’m stuck selling it as @Loewe implies, or do I stick with it? All I’ll say is I got it for way cheaper than what the auctions sold it for.

 

[chrisftk]

Luckily, I’m not. A shame, I really liked this Mauser too. I’m in it for fairly cheap so, I didn’t gain much or lose much of anything. I’ve at most lost the coolness of it. It’s truly a shame.

So if I’m stuck selling it as @Loewe implies, or do I stick with it? All I’ll say is I got it for way cheaper than what the auctions sold it for.

That's up to you-- you can always keep it as a shooter or placeholder. In my experience though, I am never happy if something isn't righteous and will return it. Too many good guns out there to waste $$ on boinked ones.

 

[T1D.Operator]

That's up to you-- you can always keep it as a shooter or placeholder. In my experience though, I am never happy if something isn't righteous and will return it. Too many good guns out there to waste $$ on boinked ones.

Sadly I can’t return this one. I guess what’s a good value for it? I’ve had interest in it but I wasn’t planning to ever sell it. But like you, if it isn’t original it ruins it. Just disappointed I guess lol.

I know a value may be tough, but considering it is not a run of the mill Mauser, could it still be worth something to atleast get a legitimate one lol. Or is better off just trading it at this point. I know a few guys who might take it and not care, especially since it’s a G29, even with a messed up floor plate.

I’d much rather get something that’s real than not. I didn’t study history in university for nothing. Half the reason I got this was to preserve the history lol.

 

[Warrior1354]

I wonder if this one could be possibly some sort of rework? Here is another example that had the stock takedown disk added. The other example was also cut for a sight hood as well. Maybe we can get some conclusions if we compare both examples together.

1939 G29o 660 with stock takedown disk

Hello, I need help in determining whether a G29o that I have is correct. It was recently purchased. It is the only one I have seen with a stock takedown washer instead of a one sided ID disk. The rifle is all matched aside from a K98k bolt and I had no question about the numbering or the stock...

www.k98kforum.com

 

[T1D.Operator]

I wonder if this one could be possibly some sort of rework? Here is another example that had the stock takedown disk added. The other example was also cut for a sight hood as well. Maybe we can get some conclusions if we compare both examples together.

1939 G29o 660 with stock takedown disk

Hello, I need help in determining whether a G29o that I have is correct. It was recently purchased. It is the only one I have seen with a stock takedown washer instead of a one sided ID disk. The rifle is all matched aside from a K98k bolt and I had no question about the numbering or the stock...

www.k98kforum.com

Very interesting. Look very similar to mine, except for the sight hood! Does feature the same thing as well. Maybe I was wrong, it just used BSW parts when it went for depot work.

 

[Stephan98k]

I wonder if this one could be possibly some sort of rework? Here is another example that had the stock takedown disk added. The other example was also cut for a sight hood as well. Maybe we can get some conclusions if we compare both examples together.

1939 G29o 660 with stock takedown disk

Hello, I need help in determining whether a G29o that I have is correct. It was recently purchased. It is the only one I have seen with a stock takedown washer instead of a one sided ID disk. The rifle is all matched aside from a K98k bolt and I had no question about the numbering or the stock...

www.k98kforum.com

Very well observed Jordan.

This could be a repair / rework by a troop armorer. A BSW spare part was used for the rework, the company by itself was not involved. Keep in mind they have used BSW receivers and other spare parts for the Luftwaffe Depot Builds K98k too.

I know it's unusual, but these reworks were done with other rifles (Polish, Czech and Yugoslavian) during this time period). It looks like the Luftwaffe armorers did sometimes similar with the G.12/34.

I think we put such a document also in the Volume II book.



"In order to avoid the bending and breaking of the firing pin tips, the “device for disassembling and assembling the bolt” can be attached to the carbine (p.) in the troop armory. The attachment has to be done as with
the K98k."

 

[T1D.Operator]

Very well observed Jordan.

This could be a repair / rework by a troop armorer. A BSW spare part was used for the rework, the company by itself was not involved. Keep in mind they have used BSW receivers and other spare parts for the Luftwaffe Depot Builds K98k too.

I know it's unusual, but these reworks were done with other rifles (Polish, Czech and Yugoslavian) during this time period). It looks like the Luftwaffe armorers did sometimes similar with the G.12/34.

I think we put such a document also in the Volume II book.

View attachment 372764

"In order to avoid the bending and breaking of the firing pin tips, the “device for disassembling and assembling the bolt” can be attached to the carbine (p.) in the troop armory. The attachment has to be done as with
the K98k."

I see. This does make sense. I had no idea the company itself wouldn't have been involved, I just presumed off of the WaA4. I won't say I'm an expert, of course, my field is more so Communist Bloc items. If it is a troop repair, I guess this would put it into a more unique rifle. While not 100% "original," is it technically still original? I mean the only other thing Chris mentioned was the number stamp, but if this is field worked it could easily be done to keep track maybe?

 

[Warrior1354]

Here is another one a vz23/24 german depot reworked. Take down disk that was added was also a left over waA4 marked component. No depot proofs on the stock unfortunately. Another interesting detail I noticed with this rifle posted. Was the S/42 armorers gas shield. Are their more armorers components in the bolt group by chance?

German VZ24 rework vet bring back

Been on the hunt for a nice Czech vz24 German rework and this one really fit the bill. Hoping to find another one that is lion crested and depot marked some day. But finding about any Czech rifle that is original is very tough to be honest. This rifle was found at the OVMS show in Ohio this...

www.k98kforum.com

 

[T1D.Operator]

Here is another one a vz23/24 german depot reworked. Take down disk that was added was also a left over waA4 marked component. No depot proofs on the stock unfortunately. Another interesting detail I noticed with this rifle posted. Was the S/42 armorers gas shield. Are their more armorers components in the bolt group by chance?

German VZ24 rework vet bring back

Been on the hunt for a nice Czech vz24 German rework and this one really fit the bill. Hoping to find another one that is lion crested and depot marked some day. But finding about any Czech rifle that is original is very tough to be honest. This rifle was found at the OVMS show in Ohio this...

www.k98kforum.com

I haven’t done a full tear down. Where else should I look for armorer components? I’ve yet to pull the stock off the receiver entirely.

The only different marks have been the WaA4, “S” under the buttplate, and the S/42. I'll try and do a more thorough disassembly in a bit. Then we can see if there's more to it.

Besides that, that’s a cool VZ24! I would love to own one, and I am currently trying to get a Lion Crest one locally.

Edit: Here is some additional photos. @Warrior1354, one other spot I immediately found has S/42 marks and is proofed properly. Besides that, the bolt features all proper WaA623 stamps.

 

[Loewe]

Perhaps I was too harsh originally and should limited myself to what is certain or at least probable with what is known. The rifle has a number of anomalies and generally doesn't conform well with known ordnance work, - which was the origins of 2011 discussions on this rifle, but 2011 pictures (emails are text and they were mostly questions, but can't post here as I would have to ask first) were not as thorough as LR 2014 auction which I will attach here. Re-your message the auction link is dead and search function on GB is only good for 90 days or so, so the text above is all that is saved (I have the html in word but it won't post here for some reason. I spent 15 minutes getting what I posted above of the auction text, quite annoying).

In short the rifle is not typical of Army ordnance work and as Jordan and Stephan pointed out these were primarily LW issue and they had their own ordnance staffs and probably deviate from Army procedures, to the degree it has originality it lies here. What is certain is BSW has zero to do with this rifle, which was brought up in 2011, - BSW and mfg in general did no ordnance work (BLM did do some conversions in 1940 or so, others probably as well but it is uncommon and these would be mass production type work, not piecemeal ordnance repairs), possibly ordnance work produced this here but BSW nor any other firm during the war did repair, none... Jon Speed once stated here that problem rifles would be taken back at WMO but only for mfg related repairs and of course pre-1935 or so Simson and WMO would do some work and upgrades, but this was more expensive than ordnance men doing upgrades at depots (and such work is unproductive at the mfg level can be disruptive to contract work).

Anyway here are LR 2014 auction pictures attached. Perhaps they will reveal something to one of our many experienced collectors can hang an opinion on. Also, that it drew $2,375 in 2014 dollars, at an fairly honest auction, might be a better measure of value than an old grumpy researcher forum opinion!

 

[Loewe]

The last...

 

[Loewe]

Really the last...

 

[Bigdibbs88]

could be a rework. FWIW i think at least some of it stands a good chance. I am certain the stock serial is legit at a minimum.... some of the other serials id like to have in hand but i think stand a chance. I'm not sure i care for the bolt handle numbering. As Paul stated there is zero BSW connection on this rifle... e/4 marked disks show up on reworks somewhat routinely.

This is one that you need to be comfortable with on your own. It will likely always be questioned and rightly so, it doesnt fit the norm. Like my gew88 fiasco thread, people will knock it due to "big font" or "no depot stamp" or "depot stamp not in the right place", some of which you cant argue, others you can. But with depot's there isnt necessarily a norm... yes most depots follow trends, some routinely break their own trends, and it seems like almost no two depots did things exactly the same. The other thing thats tough on this one is when judging the font theres no "obvious" period that jumps out (pre or post 1945) for those of us who nerd out on that- but IMO the font certainly "could" be period (IE its not blatantly a post war font style). It will likely never be fully validated, and does not follow norms, so you will need to decide for yourself if you're comfortable with it or not.

 

[T1D.Operator]

could be a rework. FWIW i think at least some of it stands a good chance. I am certain the stock serial is legit at a minimum.... some of the other serials id like to have in hand but i think stand a chance. I'm not sure i care for the bolt handle numbering. As Paul stated there is zero BSW connection on this rifle... e/4 marked disks show up on reworks somewhat routinely.

This is one that you need to be comfortable with on your own. It will likely always be questioned and rightly so, it doesnt fit the norm. Like my gew88 fiasco thread, people will knock it due to "big font" or "no depot stamp" or "depot stamp not in the right place", some of which you cant argue, others you can. But with depot's there isnt necessarily a norm... yes most depots follow trends, some routinely break their own trends, and it seems like almost no two depots did things exactly the same. The other thing thats tough on this one is when judging the font theres no "obvious" period that jumps out (pre or post 1945) for those of us who nerd out on that- but IMO the font certainly "could" be period (IE its not blatantly a post war font style). It will likely never be fully validated, and does not follow norms, so you will need to decide for yourself if you're comfortable with it or not.

That’s fair. I just found it to be cool. From looking into other examples of depot reworks and so on, I’d like to believe this is legitimate. I mean like @Stephan98k ans @Warrior1354 said, it could likely be a troop armorer rework, and it would make some sense. Most of the parts add up to the timeline of it being a rework on 39-40. Would make sense too considering thats when the war started.

I’m still baffled by the “S” mark beneath the buttplate though, and I can’t figure out what that means. I could do a full tear down tonight or tomorrow and see if there’s any marks that might’ve been missed, or just oddities. Can’t hurt not too. Sometimes a fresh pair of eyes opens up a thing or two!

 

[chrisftk]

could be a rework. FWIW i think at least some of it stands a good chance. I am certain the stock serial is legit at a minimum.... some of the other serials id like to have in hand but i think stand a chance. I'm not sure i care for the bolt handle numbering. As Paul stated there is zero BSW connection on this rifle... e/4 marked disks show up on reworks somewhat routinely.

This is one that you need to be comfortable with on your own. It will likely always be questioned and rightly so, it doesnt fit the norm. Like my gew88 fiasco thread, people will knock it due to "big font" or "no depot stamp" or "depot stamp not in the right place", some of which you cant argue, others you can. But with depot's there isnt necessarily a norm... yes most depots follow trends, some routinely break their own trends, and it seems like almost no two depots did things exactly the same. The other thing thats tough on this one is when judging the font theres no "obvious" period that jumps out (pre or post 1945) for those of us who nerd out on that- but IMO the font certainly "could" be period (IE its not blatantly a post war font style). It will likely never be fully validated, and does not follow norms, so you will need to decide for yourself if you're comfortable with it or not.

@Bigdibbs88 I should probably clarify too; the takedown ferrule was actually not something that had concerned me; discs were added often to various rifles that didn't have them originally.

The areas I am spurious on are some of the serial numbers. I had previously mentioned the external serial number on the hand guard which looked a odd. Also I'm not a huge fan of the bolt handle as Rob indicated as well.

Is there an lk5 or other stamp on the left side of the stock near the buttplate? They can be a little hard to see.

@Justinian while my guard remains up and I am still of the opinion that I don't like certain aspects of it, there's probably enough positives to hang on to it. It's especially true given that you said it was purchased very inexpensively. I have owned rifles with question marks over the years and as long as they are not too expensive you're not really out much even if there will always be lingering questions.