1925 Simson

[weimar_police]

Hello all,

I have been reading the 1925 Simson rifles. Picked up the one sporterized on gunbroker the other day, supposed to arrive tomorrow and I'll pick it up. I am familiar with Simson & Co - their history and the lugers they made, trying to learn about the rifles.

Will want to get a stock for it, but will need to know if the barrel has been cut, etc. Just for looks, not value.
I read that the barrels should be 29 inches, so that is a good start?

Not my pictures, will clean her up and post pictures soon.


Ed

 

[Loewe]

Welcome Ed, most here are familiar with your book on Simson, so i will skip over the tedious with you here.

A Simson/1925 will have a barrel the same length as a Gewehr98, for a Kar.98b is simply a Gewehr98 modified to have a side sling arrangement and bent bolt. Or as John Wall use to say it is a 98k with 6 extra inches of barrel and stock.

A barrel is going to be difficult, if you want a 98b Simson barrel, not many are around for sale, but Simson did make a significant number or ordnance spares, for the G98 and 98b, so you probably can find one of these easier (the differences are negligible, mostly markings). You might have to scrap a project rifle to do it though, as finding one loose might be a chore. A stock and proper Simson parts are going to be tough and expensive. They carry a lot of demand and there aren't a lot loose. The easiest way is the most expensive, buy rifles to get spare parts. It is pretty common to see e/6 components on mismatched rifles. Though few have the money to go this route, buying, taking parts and selling the remains... most everyone i know has a project 98b Simson leaning on a wall, so you have a lot of competition for these parts (I have a 1924 leaning on my wall). Might be best to find one more complete?

Good luck though!

 

[weimar_police]

Thank you, I appreciate it.

I think I am more likely to just find a stock for now to make it look more military, but we'll see. more correct is always better.

So, I am looking for a barrel and stock? But I am understanding correctly that a Gewehr98 barrel would work?
But obviously a Simson barrel would be the smart thing, but hard to get.

I of course now wish that I'd had more information when writing Simson Lugers - as there is so much newer information and simply information that I did not know where to get it.

Ed

 

[weimar_police]

Received it - It has a nice S and triangle / simson marking. Was surprised to see a Luftwaffe looking eagle 4 on the left, and the seller did not show the GEW 88 - so was glad to see that had not been removed.

To the right of the eagle 4 - are these just bang markings or previous markings taken off?

 

[Loewe]

Ed, You need to be more clear on what we are dealing with here. Is this two rifles or one, is it just a receiver or is it a sporterised rifle.

LZa/4 is a Luftwaffe ordnance depot stamp, assuming this is a different rifle than the receiver shown, it could be an LW ordnance depot re-barrel, lots of variables here, but a good start is to detail each rifle separately and clearly and to give a larger view to the area you are photographing.

 

[weimar_police]

Post number 2 was the only pictures of the bare receiver... I deleted it since it was confusing. I just thought someone might want the info on it.

All info and pictures of the sporterized rifle, only.

 

[Loewe]

I had 1201 a recorded from 2012; I was wondering why the conflicting pictures.

What is this one? 1925 also? Would have to see more of the barrel and rearsight to tell anything, actually little can be said with your selection of pictures. As a well known researcher, you know little can be said with such angles, a top-left-right receiver is essential, the barrel equally important (stock most important when original), - Simson didn't make 98k length barrels, though their logo shown here can linger into their BSW name change era, but with this logo present, I would expect this to be a G98 length barrel originally. A quick search though my trends show Gewehr98's that retained their barrels length passing through LZa/4, and generally G98 rifles (receivers) were only converted when a 98k ordnance spare barrel is used. The Luftwaffe did not feel the need to convert (upgrade) their G98 length rifles like is often the case with HZa ordnance shops. It is almost unheard of for a HZa G98 receiver to not have a 98k barrel replacement.

Anyway, in one case a 1916 Danzig passed through LZa/4 with a G98 length Simson barrel, probably very much like yours, unfortunately the only original parts are the barreled receiver and sights. Here are a couple pictures, there is an excellent chance this is how your rifle once appeared, as a G98 length rifle, so far I have not seen a G98 length barrel shortened to 98k length by an LZa.

 

[Loewe]

Another example... same deal, barreled receiver.

 

[weimar_police]

Same gun as first posting and those were the gunbroker pictures. I received it, I.e. Got it in the mail from the gunbroker auction, so next pictures are close ups I took of same 1925 Simson receiver. I cropped my pictures down to see the markings, guess I assumed you'd be able to know where they were located and marked.

the gunbroker pictures were not good, but it just ended this week, so can be found there, http://www.gunbroker.com/item/686507895

I can take better pictures later if desired.

Present barrel is only 23 inches from rear of receiver to front of barrel, so approximately what 21.5 inch barrel? It also is not in very good shape inside.

I pulled the lone receiver picture since it seemed to cause confusion.

 

[Loewe]

Initially I was under the impression this 1201 a was re-barreled since 2012 and these were one rifle being discussed.

The various part you showed yesterday show a vague partial barrel code, the Simson logo the only identifier, which only tells the maker, nothing that would be useful in dating the barrel. The LZa/4 ordnance fireproof is meaningless by itself, it should also be serialed, this would tell whether it was original to the LZa work, - but it looks like it has "x" over markings, but unclear because of your narrowed focus & crop... It also appears to have idiot markings from someone using a vice or wrench to try and separate the barreled receiver, but your crop only leaves questions to whether it is just my perception or a fact. The siderail photograph just shows the designation, which is always Gew.98 because they Kar.98b designation had not been adopted yet.

This barrel, even though Simson made, was not original to its 1925 mfg. Original Simson 98b barrels lack this logo or trademark, only ordnance spares have them. Most probably this barrel was installed by LZa/4, as shown by the two other similar rifles I posted. LZa/4 probably had an inventory of them on hand. Odds are excellent the waffenamt e/4 is on the barrel and this would date the barrel to the post-1933 period, - it lacking an interwar fireproof shows this isn't likely to date earlier.

Anyway, good luck with your project.

 

[weimar_police]

sorry, I assumed that you would want to see the 2nd receiver and markings, but it was one posting and should have left it out.

Here are some more full pictures

 

[vaughn99]

Hello,

saw this rifle and bid on it, but you can see some one stuck it in a vise to try and de-barrel it and left the vise jaw marks in several places and is why I stop bidding. I hope you have good luck with your project.

later
vaughn

 

[weimar_police]

yes thank you

folks keep talking about it like a project, but the reality is that I wanted it for the markings

I have had four 1925 simson lugers and have one 1926 simson luger

 

[mowzerluvr]

I like it. I (to date) collect BSW/Gustloff from 1937-1945. I'd love to find something prior like this myself. Parts for them are fleeting at best. I have a small stash that I ended up with inadvertently but no major components like bolts, barrels or receivers.

 

[heavy10]

Bubba sure does have a fine hand in finding rifles to muck around with. Rifle in OP was a very cool rifle in original form. His other choice for the hacksaw treatment that beer-fueled Saturday night was probably a 1898 Oberndorf Gew98 with a 2 digit serial.

It is possible to save the barrel markings via careful lathe work, if one were inclined to get it back to gewehr length. It involves turning the existing chamber & marking area into a sleeve that fits over a replacement barrel, with the marks timed correctly and silver soldered in place. Costly labor of love, and one that would not likely achieve return on investment, but well within the scope of a capable machinist.

I'd be of the mind to restore it to a 98k or Standard Modell style if the original barrel was long enough.

 

[heavy_mech]

Bubba sure does have a fine hand in finding rifles to muck around with.

Yes of course. Bubba loves the rare and exotic of course. Can't wreck an RC