1915 Erfurt Kar98a 2053ee

[chrisftk]

Hi all, I got this one several years ago with a grouping of several other rifles. It occurred to me that I never documented it, so i thought I would do so.

While far from a rare maker/date, this one has some neat things going for it.

First; the wood is excellent.

Secondly, there is another presumed depot marking (Rastatt) on the left side of the stock; this is something we noticed on another couple of rifles and given that it is a number and letter it follows the depot convention. This may have been an atypical or short-lived practice, as only a handful of examples seem to have it. The 1902 WMO I posted a couple years ago has a similar marking.

Third, the butt plate has a Kustrin marking, along with a "G" about the same size as the Hannover "H" and Danzig "D" witnessed on rifles. Not sure if this is just a secondary armorer initial or denotes an actual facility.
I'd be interested if anyone had witnessed a similar "G" in their travels.

Finally, I'm not sure what the "47" in the sling cutout indicates. Maybe a partial unit marking/weapon number. I do see them occasionally on sling swivels. Just a guess.

Otherwise, the rifles matches, as reworked, and it has a nice patina to it. While not the nicest of my wartime Erfurts, it's certainly a great gun on its own merits.

Receiver 2053 ee
Barrel: 2053 ee (BSI 278)
Front Sight 53
Rear Sight Leaf 53
Sight Slider 53
Ejector Box 53
Trigger Sear 53
Front Barrel Band 53
Rear Barrel Band 53
Trigger Guard 2053
Trigger Guard Screws 53, 53
Floor Plate 53
Follower 53
Stock 2053
Handguard 2053
Buttplate 2053
Bayonet Lug 53
Stacking Hook 53
Bolt Body 2053
Extractor 53
Safety 53
Cocking Piece 53
Bolt Sleeve 53
Firing Pin 53

 

[chrisftk]

Rest of the pics:

 

[joryfreeburg]

That’s a good one Chris….. Nice rifle!

 

[CLG]

Great write up, Chris. Several neat features I had missed. There is some damage to the pistol grip that was smoothed over, I wonder if that was part of the depot work?

 

[PrayingMantis]

Text book Erfurt 1915 Kar, Chris! Thanks for getting the photos up. It's in the reference now. Also good to have an example of a Kustrin rework, i will add it to the depot research thread.

The depot number on the stock is great. I think that this was more common than we assumed, given that this is the second buttstock observed and a number of depot stamps on keels have been reported also. Here is the closest i can come to the G: this mark may have been a G, but had something else stamped annoyingly in the same spot. It's on a heavily worn DWM 1915. Doesn't help with identification, but something to keep an eye out for.

The numbers on the sling cutout are likely from the milling process, or at least that's my best guess, they show up on a lot of Erfurts. My heavily damaged (and poorly photographed) Erfurt 1916 has two sets.

 

[biggymu]

Nothing wrong with that one! Nice Chris.

 

[AN-94]

That's a sweet Erfurt with some interesting depot work and an excellent write up regarding depot conventions. Really like the stock and depot markings on this one, thanks for sharing the knowledge!

 

[chrisftk]

Great write up, Chris. Several neat features I had missed. There is some damage to the pistol grip that was smoothed over, I wonder if that was part of the depot work?

Thanks Charles! Still happy you were kind enough to sell the group to me. I think you are right; on further review, it looks like maybe some shrapnel damage or something was smoothed over. The wood is rough and slightly concave on that side . I missed that in my initial spread of pictures.

Text book Erfurt 1915 Kar, Chris! Thanks for getting the photos up. It's in the reference now. Also good to have an example of a Kustrin rework, i will add it to the depot research thread.

The depot number on the stock is great. I think that this was more common than we assumed, given that this is the second buttstock observed and a number of depot stamps on keels have been reported also. Here is the closest i can come to the G: this mark may have been a G, but had something else stamped annoyingly in the same spot. It's on a heavily worn DWM 1915. Doesn't help with identification, but something to keep an eye out for.

The numbers on the sling cutout are likely from the milling process, or at least that's my best guess, they show up on a lot of Erfurts. My heavily damaged (and poorly photographed) Erfurt 1916 has two sets.

Thanks Cyrus-- I think Marc may have a 1915 Erfurt reworked at Kustrin too.

I think these stock depot markings were simply missed when looking at rifles. A lot of sellers would never catch such a thing and most people posting their pics rarely would look, particularly on the left side of the stock. I bet we'll start seeing more now that we are more aware.

I'll have to check my other 98a- most have slings, so i hadn't really paid attention!

 

[feldmütze]

I nice, honest Erfurt. Great pickup Chris!

 

[Loewe]

Not questioning the rifle, though I thought I would bring up something the forum might settle with a "collective" effort.... (collectivization should be ridiculed in most cases, but in this form it might be acceptable...)

The short of it is this rifle has been recorded before, I recorded it as ee-block, the "perceived" last block of this year for this maker.

The general outline - Erfurt/15 (98a) is near 100% to the cc-block (4 recorded), no dd-blocks have been recorded, but 4 listed as ee-blocks.

Question- probability of cc & ee being all cc-blocks? Probability in-between cc-ee none discovered (rare with such high production...)

Attached are the cc- blocks so far recorded, quality of pictures vary due to diversity of source. ee-blocks will follow, normally I tend to go with 20 years of experience trending, and other that Chris I would likely not have looked more closely but in research facts must prevail, even if "facts" often are perceptions and little more than opinions (in this case it is worth being open minded).

I am short of time so this maybe crudely done but I live by the batteries.

cc- files

 

[Loewe]

ee- files

 

[Loewe]

The short of it:

Does 1915/Erfurt end at the cc-block and no dd- blocks exist (been seen)? The RR trend consistent throughout cc-ee:

1915 Erfurt 2313 z – C/B* C/E C/W

1915 Erfurt 3298 z – C/B* C/E C/W (B.S.I. 160) (bolt- C/W)

1915 Erfurt 7016 z – C/B* C/E C/W (bolt- C/W?)

1915 Erfurt 7876 z – C/B* C/E C/W (BC- B.S.I. 220 C/X)



1915 Erfurt 2017 aa – RR- n/a

1915 Erfurt 3119 aa – RR- n/a

1915 Erfurt 8995 aa – RR- n/a

​

1915 Erfurt 3953 bb – C/B* C/E C/W (BC- B.S.I. 234 C/X)



1915 Erfurt 851 cc – (C/B* C/E C/W)

1915 Erfurt 5077 cc – RR- n/a

1915 Erfurt 5115 cc – C/B* C/E C/W

1915 Erfurt 9580 cc – C/B* C/E C/W (bolt- C/W)



1915 Erfurt 506 ee – C/B* C/E C/W (1920 - L.Hi.169)

1915 Erfurt 1557 ee – C/B* C/E C/W (re-barrel BO 462) (1920)

1915 Erfurt 1966 ee – C/B* C/E C/W

1915 Erfurt 2053 ee – C/B* C/E C/W (BC- B.S.I. 278 C/X) (bolt- C/R?)

 

[chrisftk]

Question- probability of cc & ee being all cc-blocks? Probability inbetween cc-ee none discovered (rare with such high production...)

Thanks Paul! These script letters are never a certainty with me. On further review, I lean toward accepting that it is an ee and we just have not seen a dd yet. I did a quick comparison:



Top are two purported cc blocks, middle is my rifle and the bottom are two purported ee blocks. I do see enough of a difference in the character to feel pretty good that mine and the bottom two are ee. It sure would be nice if a dd popped up though...

I would welcome other feedback on what they think.

 

[OnlyMil]

Awesome Kar98a Chris that has a lot more to it than meets the eyes on first look. I especially like that stock repair... Looks like they filed it? Or perhaps...? Hmm

Thanks Paul! These script letters are never a certainty with me. On further review, I lean toward accepting that it is an we and we just have not seen a dd yet. I did a quick comparison:

Top are two purported cc blocks, middle is my rifle and the bottom are two purported ee blocks. I do see enough of a difference in the character to feel pretty good that mine and the bottom two are ee. It sure would be nice if a dd popped up though...

I would welcome other feedback on what they think.

I know this is unrelated to what Paul is trying to ascertain on Kar98a production, and just wanted to interject that as a proud owner of a single "cc" block DWM Gewehr, I feel I can relate in the sometimes difficult task of deciphering the script font. The receiver kind of looks like "ee" but the barrel is clearly "cc". Fun times!

 

[Loewe]

Chris, I liked the composite comparison, and the openminded approach; I tend to agree the most likely scenario is the absence of a dd-block discovery than a hard stop at cc-block especially as cc is reported with two 5000 cc and one 9000 cc, - the likelihood of the dd-block is high at least

9580/cc

 

[Loewe]

9580/cc part II

 

[chrisftk]

Chris, I liked the composite comparison, and the openminded approach; I tend to agree the most likely scenario is the absence of a dd-block discovery than a hard stop at cc-block especially as cc is reported with two 5000 cc and one 9000 cc, - the likelihood of the dd-block is high at least

Thanks Paul, hopefully a DD will pop up and make it "case closed"; if not I still feel good we are correct now.
Any thoughts on the large "G" on the buttplate?

 

[Loewe]

Awesome Kar98a Chris that has a lot more to it than meets the eyes on first look. I especially like that stock repair... Looks like they filed it? Or perhaps...? Hmm



I know this is unrelated to what Paul is trying to ascertain on Kar98a production, and just wanted to interject that as a proud owner of a single "cc" block DWM Gewehr, I feel I can relate in the sometimes difficult task of deciphering the script font. The receiver kind of looks like "ee" but the barrel is clearly "cc". Fun times!

View attachment 401490

Must be 1916/DWM and not in trends, at least prior to the vast updates that have been accumulated... my database hasn't been reconciled since 2019 and I doubt I will live long enough to resolve its fragmentation!

DWM only is known to go as high as the cc-block (actually kk-block) in 1916; it can be nothing other than a 1916 as DWM was no Erfurt in proliferation, though DWM was the solid runner up as Erfurt & DWM had pistols and MG's on their plate and bigboy Danzig made her numbers with concentration (diversity is always costly, both on production and continuity- in all its variety if you know what I mean, - too much diversity is destructive...)

 

[Loewe]

Speculation:

While "G" is not associable with Jon Speed's list, I would suggest it's meaning is related (for instance Danzig possessed an artillery depot at the end of the war, at least, probably pre-war and not engaged in work WMO could supply but not listed and there were many others, further such makings typically relate to accountability for work done). My guess is it is a depot assigned to return to service salvaged rifles.

Paul, here is list of Designated Depots all named Artillery Depots =AD, Notes with what they ordered from 1913-1916.

Amberg AD - C 96 pistols

Dresden AD - C96

Danzig Factor y- G 98 parts and Barrels

Erfurt Factory - C 96

Furth AD - C96

Königsburg AD- C 96 and 6.35 pistols

Karlsruhe AD - 1282 Sporters used by Military as sniper rifles and for food gathering etc. I have a cool photo of a German Unit issued with Mauser SporterAfrican Models with scopes fro sniping etc I worked on small article about this with a German Friend in an English publication etc.

Ludwigsburg AD - G98 and C 96

Landau AD - C 96

Munich AD- C96 and 7.65 Pistols

Spandau AD- 7.65 pistols



It would appear in this time period the need for G 98 parts was limited and the State factories with Spandau the main group ordering G 98 and other items. As things got going the factories ramped up. In this period we dont see the need for parts and materials being sent to other factories. When you get into 1917on wards period there was a lost of business activity between all State factories until end of war etc.



In regards to the small Alepo Sales to British guy there were many Intel and diplomatic activity folks running around this region aslö various firms had business there etc. Regards, Jon