1909 Spandau Wartime Rework, Danzig, Depot "22"

[chgruener]

Hello all, I'm new to this page but was directed here by someone off of Instagram. I have a 1909 Spandau which appears to be almost entirely force-matched via scoring and restamping or overstamping. The butt plate is marked "D", "L", and "22". I have been told that the "22" is a later wartime depot that has only become known since this rifle surfaced a couple of days ago, now in my personal collection. I welcome any and all opinions on this rifle and any additional information you may have. My niches are Japanese rifles and edged weapons so I am pretty ignorant of Gew98s, please share any and all info because I probably don't know! Please review the photos below and request additional if needed.

Photos are too large to direct post so please access the Google Drive link below with the full album. Thank you.

1909 Spandau - Google Drive

Wartime Rework 1909 Spandau

drive.google.com

 

[PrayingMantis]

Glad you posted your Gewehr here. It is an interesting one, especially since it's seen work at a depot that was previously unrecorded. With so many reworks it's hard to say who did what. Can you do more photos? specifically of the barrel under the wood, and the right side of the receiver? What jumps out at me is that even the receiver is overstamped, leading me to speculate that the entire weapon was matched to the bolt, which would be very unusual.

 

[OzzMan]

Nice rifle overall! Just a thought, could have passed through depot 2 (Küstrin) twice over the course of the war? I ask this since the “2”s do not line up.

 

[chrisftk]

Great rifle and a neat renumbering on the receiver. I've got a Hanover build with a similar renumbering. Unusual to see that to Cyrus's point. 1909 Spandau are not easy receiver maker/dates to find.

Looks like this one passed through Danzig, Depot 22(unknown location), then possibly a depot "L"? That's well traveled!

Nice rifle and welcome!

If at all possible, could you upload photos directly to the forum? I'm sure Cyrus would love to add it to the reference section. Let me know if you have any issues with doing so. It can be finnicky.

 

[chgruener]

Nice rifle overall! Just a thought, could have passed through depot 2 (Küstrin) twice over the course of the war? I ask this since the “2”s do not line up.

That is an interesting theory! Didn’t think of that. I’m not sure how they stamped the numbers but I guess for a number as high as “22” I could see them using “2” twice to make “22”. Either way, thank you for your input!

 

[chgruener]

Glad you posted your Gewehr here. It is an interesting one, especially since it's seen work at a depot that was previously unrecorded. With so many reworks it's hard to say who did what. Can you do more photos? specifically of the barrel under the wood, and the right side of the receiver? What jumps out at me is that even the receiver is overstamped, leading me to speculate that the entire weapon was matched to the bolt, which would be very unusual.

I can get those photos for you tonight and add them to the google drive link. I have not taken this rifle apart but the gentleman who sold it to me said he did once before (he put the rear barrel band on backwards).

 

[chgruener]

Great rifle and a neat renumbering on the receiver. I've got a Hanover build with a similar renumbering. Unusual to see that to Cyrus's point. 1909 Spandau are not easy receiver maker/dates to find.

Looks like this one passed through Danzig, Depot 22(unknown location), then possibly a depot "L"? That's well traveled!

Nice rifle and welcome!

If at all possible, could you upload photos directly to the forum? I'm sure Cyrus would love to add it to the reference section. Let me know if you have any issues with doing so. It can be finnicky.

Thanks for the input! I’ve quickly discovered the rabbit hole with these rifles. I tried uploading them directly to the thread but the forum spits out an error message regarding the photo size. The google drive link was the only other method I could think of.

 

[chgruener]

Glad you posted your Gewehr here. It is an interesting one, especially since it's seen work at a depot that was previously unrecorded. With so many reworks it's hard to say who did what. Can you do more photos? specifically of the barrel under the wood, and the right side of the receiver? What jumps out at me is that even the receiver is overstamped, leading me to speculate that the entire weapon was matched to the bolt, which would be very unusual.

I have added additional photos of every marking under the wood line. They should be available to you at the same link in my original post. Let me know what you think.

 

[mauser1908]

Glad you posted it here, it’s an excellent example. I think Cyrus and Chris are right, they seemed to have built a rifle around a bolt. When you look at why Danzig marked these guns with a ‘D’ vs a ‘1’ it’s important to explore the level of work done. Rifles that were assembled from the ground up were marked with a ‘D’. Essentially depot assemblies. Rifles marked with a ‘1’ were probably more typical depot reworks. After looking at the barrel firing proof it’s clear that this gun was “assembled” in the 1917-18 period at Danzig. In other words, the receiver is probably the only thing left from the 1909 period.

 

[chgruener]

Thank you for the info! I love the responses and info I’m getting. After looking at the rifle a little more, I believe the rifle was built around the receiver. It is extremely hard to tell from the photos, but there are very worn numbers underneath the “new” bolt numbers. I am almost positive that the bolt was over stamped with “3618”. The receiver was “xx18” but they over stamped the first two digits with “36”. The barrel bands are not scored or over stamped and are still originally numbered “18”, as well as the trigger, which match the “18” from the receiver. I believe the barrel bands, trigger, and receiver are original from 1909. Everything else was obviously scored out and restamped or over stamped (floor plate, trigger/magazine, bolt, barrel, and sight assembly). I was also wondering about the year that this rifle could have been assembled. I have been told that these rifles were mainly put together very early on in the war as a result of the arms shortage. By 1916, the Germans had outpaced themselves with gew98 production and had no reason to piece together rifles like these, especially by 1917/18. This is not necessary what I believe, but it is another opinion I have heard. What do you think?

 

[chrisftk]

Thank you for the info! I love the responses and info I’m getting. After looking at the rifle a little more, I believe the rifle was built around the receiver. It is extremely hard to tell from the photos, but there are very worn numbers underneath the “new” bolt numbers. I am almost positive that the bolt was over stamped with “3618”. The receiver was “xx18” but they over stamped the first two digits with “36”. The barrel bands are not scored or over stamped and are still originally numbered “18”, as well as the trigger, which match the “18” from the receiver. I believe the barrel bands, trigger, and receiver are original from 1909. Everything else was obviously scored out and restamped or over stamped (floor plate, trigger/magazine, bolt, barrel, and sight assembly). I was also wondering about the year that this rifle could have been assembled. I have been told that these rifles were mainly put together very early on in the war as a result of the arms shortage. By 1916, the Germans had outpaced themselves with gew98 production and had no reason to piece together rifles like these, especially by 1917/18. This is not necessary what I believe, but it is another opinion I have heard. What do you think?

I think the rifle has very little to do with 1909. To Sam's point, it's a salvaged build. They are a mix of salvaged and new parts (often armorer's spares) They were assembling rifles at Danzig even very late in the war. I have an extremely late assembly with a rather funky late War stock. The whole rifle was built around a 1901 wmo receiver.

Late War Danzig Build

I ended up winning this oddball on Gunbroker. While it was missing a hand guard and a bandspring, it was otherwise pretty complete. The bolt, triggerguard assembly and stock match, as rebuilt. The majority of the rest of the small bits do not match, similar to other depot builds I've seen from...

www.k98kforum.com

 

[chgruener]

I think the rifle has very little to do with 1909. To Sam's point, it's a salvaged build. They are a mix of salvaged and new parts (often armorer's spares) They were assembling rifles at Danzig even very late in the war. I have an extremely late assembly with a rather funky late War stock. The whole rifle was built around a 1901 wmo receiver.

Late War Danzig Build

I ended up winning this oddball on Gunbroker. While it was missing a hand guard and a bandspring, it was otherwise pretty complete. The bolt, triggerguard assembly and stock match, as rebuilt. The majority of the rest of the small bits do not match, similar to other depot builds I've seen from...

www.k98kforum.com

I think the rifle has very little to do with 1909. To Sam's point, it's a salvaged build. They are a mix of salvaged and new parts (often armorer's spares) They were assembling rifles at Danzig even very late in the war. I have an extremely late assembly with a rather funky late War stock. The whole rifle was built around a 1901 wmo receiver.

Late War Danzig Build

I ended up winning this oddball on Gunbroker. While it was missing a hand guard and a bandspring, it was otherwise pretty complete. The bolt, triggerguard assembly and stock match, as rebuilt. The majority of the rest of the small bits do not match, similar to other depot builds I've seen from...

www.k98kforum.com

Thank you for the clarification, makes sense!

 

[mauser1908]

R

Thank you for the info! I love the responses and info I’m getting. After looking at the rifle a little more, I believe the rifle was built around the receiver. It is extremely hard to tell from the photos, but there are very worn numbers underneath the “new” bolt numbers. I am almost positive that the bolt was over stamped with “3618”. The receiver was “xx18” but they over stamped the first two digits with “36”. The barrel bands are not scored or over stamped and are still originally numbered “18”, as well as the trigger, which match the “18” from the receiver. I believe the barrel bands, trigger, and receiver are original from 1909. Everything else was obviously scored out and restamped or over stamped (floor plate, trigger/magazine, bolt, barrel, and sight assembly). I was also wondering about the year that this rifle could have been assembled. I have been told that these rifles were mainly put together very early on in the war as a result of the arms shortage. By 1916, the Germans had outpaced themselves with gew98 production and had no reason to piece together rifles like these, especially by 1917/18. This is not necessary what I believe, but it is another opinion I have heard. What do you think?

Like Chris mentioned, depot assemblies occurred through 1918. I would argue they increased in frequency in 1917 and 18. At a minimum they became definitely attributable to separate facilities within the arsenals or other non factory settings like Hannover. For example, Hannover engaged in ground up assmeblies early on in the war, but these are harder to delineate from the guns they serviced through their depot operations. It wasn’t until until 1917 that it became clear these assemblies were a totally different animal. I would argue depot procedure became cleaner post 1917. For example, the lined out small parts on your gun. That simply wouldn’t have happened 1914-1916. During the weapons shortage period of 1914-16 there was a lot more of just slapping things together. It’s probable the only hard and fast rule was bolt renumbering. I think most renumbering was dictated by the level of rework, time available, and facility assigned the work (they were not all created equal).

 

[chgruener]

R


Like Chris mentioned, depot assemblies occurred through 1918. I would argue they increased in frequency in 1917 and 18. At a minimum they became definitely attributable to separate facilities within the arsenals or other non factory settings like Hannover. For example, Hannover engaged in ground up assmeblies early on in the war, but these are harder to delineate from the guns they serviced through their depot operations. It wasn’t until until 1917 that it became clear these assemblies were a totally different animal. I would argue depot procedure became cleaner post 1917. The procedure was likely shored up, for example, the lined out small parts on your gun. That simply wouldn’t have happened 1914-1916. During the weapons shortage period of 1914-16 there was a lot more of just slapping things together. It’s probable the only hard and fast rule was bolt renumbering.

That makes a lot of sense, thank you!