1889 Spandau G. Mod 88. Thorn & #12 Rework (the case for depot sanding)

[chrisftk]

Since Sam did such a nice job with his stock finish post, I wanted to share a couple examples of depot/period sanding. Here is a pretty good case for it. I purchased this on the cheap off Gunbroker last spring.

The base rifle was originally an 1889 Spandau that passed through the rarely-observed Thorn depot, likely during WW1, as well as the unattributed depot 12. The rifle has an interesting RR acceptance I don't trend 88s, so I am unsure if this is typical. It also has an original old material barrel still (Marcotty by the "M" barrel code.) Screws were updated to the newer locking style at one of the depot trips.

You'll note the stock was sanded (and an X stamped above the acceptance/cypher at some point before sanding) and crisp new wrist acceptance added along with the #10 (for Thorn) stamped below and a serial # added to the keel though the stock was not internally renumbered.)

While I can't conclusively say which depot it passed through first, I would argue this is a pretty compelling case for period sanding.

 

[chrisftk]

 

[feldmütze]

I'm curious as to their reason for sanding....

 

[chrisftk]

I'm curious as to their reason for sanding....

It's a great question. I think there could be any number of reasons. They seem to have sanded if any major work was done to the stock like a splice or patch. In addition there may have been a jagged edge or something caused by shrapnel that they were trying to sand smooth.

Another reason, which is pure speculation on my part , is in keeping with what I have seen with some Bavarian Kar88 reworks. They actually steamed out and sanded away Prussian acceptance and restamp their own in some cases. Maybe in cases where the markings were obliterated it was to avoid confusion as to who the last inspector was. I don't think this is one of those cases.

With this rifle, I think the most likely explanation is that there may have been some jagged edges that needed to be smoothed out.

Again pure speculation, but just an educated guess

 

[Warrior1354]

I don't see why they would sand almost an entire stock like this? I could see the reason for doing a stock repair for doing like a wood patch on a broken buttstock. Here's a picture of a Gew88 I gave to a buddy of mine last fall. It passed through the same two Depot centers, and all they did was X out one marking. No signs of sanding.

 

[chrisftk]

I don't see why they would sand almost an entire stock like this? I could see the reason for doing a stock repair for doing like a wood patch on a broken buttstock. Here's a picture of a Gew88 I gave to a buddy of mine last fall. It passed through the same two Depot centers, and all they did was X out one marking. No signs of sanding.
View attachment 331785

Yours looks like an Amberg stock that they canceled the Bavarian cypher on and replaced with a Prussian one. Pretty interesting. But back to the sanding; it may have been an order of operations thing: mine clearly has old marking sanded with new ones applied over top on the underside. Maybe it went to the same two depots in reverse order? Maybe they smoothed out damage before the new markings were added. Who knows! either way interesting.

 

[Cyrano4747]

It's a great question. I think there could be any number of reasons. They seem to have sanded if any major work was done to the stock like a splice or patch. In addition there may have been a jagged edge or something caused by shrapnel that they were trying to sand smooth.

Another reason, which is pure speculation on my part , is in keeping with what I have seen with some Bavarian Kar88 reworks. They actually steamed out and sanded away Prussian acceptance and restamp their own in some cases. Maybe in cases where the markings were obliterated it was to avoid confusion as to who the last inspector was. I don't think this is one of those cases.

With this rifle, I think the most likely explanation is that there may have been some jagged edges that needed to be smoothed out.

Again pure speculation, but just an educated guess

This is pure speculation, and mostly based on half-remembered stuff I read on a forum probably twenty years ago (so pass the salt), but from what I recall the practice with US rifles was to scrape the stock with something sharp - a bit of broken glass frequently, a scrap of metal, a knife blade, etc - before applying a new coat of oil. This was the explanation for why so many guns straight out of military service via the CMP had non-existent or extremely faint stock cartouches.

If German arsenals were thoroughly reconditioning the stocks (perhaps to repair finish damage sustained through use?) they might have sanded them for the same reason.

See also: why every bubba hits their rifle with sandpaper before breaking out the oil.

Just speculation, though.

 

[Warrior1354]

I'm not thoroughly convinced. It doesn't really makes sense to me why you would sand older proofs off to apply new proof stamps? It makes more sense to cancel out an older proof, and apply a new proof after the rifle was inspected, and accepted for military service again. We've seen this with the countless World War II German Depot guns rebuilt. Not to mention guns rebuilt in the 20s, and the 30s. The only call that I could see for a stock being period sanded, or cleaned lightly. Would be after an armorer toe splice at the butt, which was not uncommon. Or due to a major stock repair. But if a stock was heavily damaged. It would be faster just to replace it altogether with an armorers replacement, or an entirely different stock. That stock would be more then likely be salvaged from a different rifle. That was broken down for parts, and match that stock to a rifle being repaired in a depot center.

 

[OzzMan]

This is pure speculation, and mostly based on half-remembered stuff I read on a forum probably twenty years ago (so pass the salt), but from what I recall the practice with US rifles was to scrape the stock with something sharp - a bit of broken glass frequently, a scrap of metal, a knife blade, etc - before applying a new coat of oil. This was the explanation for why so many guns straight out of military service via the CMP had non-existent or extremely faint stock cartouches.

If German arsenals were thoroughly reconditioning the stocks (perhaps to repair finish damage sustained through use?) they might have sanded them for the same reason.

See also: why every bubba hits their rifle with sandpaper before breaking out the oil.

Just speculation, though.

To add to this. Why would the German army stop and take the time to sand down a stock to a rifle that would likely be going to a reserve troop and not the front line? Why spend all that time on a reserve rifle when there are surely front line rifles that need refurbed? Why wouldn’t they just X out the other cartouches in order to prevent confusion? And if they did not X them out, why would they not completely sand them off in order to replace them or prevent confusion in the future? Why wouldn’t they just take a stock from another rifle? Sanding a stock with a war going on seems to be the least efficient thing you could do. The oil/stain would be of much better use on a new rifle than refurbing an old rifle. There seem to be more questions than answers here.

 

[chrisftk]

I'm not thoroughly convinced. It doesn't really makes sense to me why you would sand older proofs off to apply new proof stamps?

You are right to have healthy skepticism Jordan. I'm generally dismissive of period sanding (or if Cyrano's thoughts were true, maybe abrasion is a better term), though I do firmly believe it happended. The only new stamps applied were a wrist acceptance with a #10 stamp and adding a SN. The sides weren't re accepted- no real reason to. I think the wrist was more of a "inspector ___ approved final assembly at Thorn"

It makes more sense to cancel out an older proof, and apply a new proof after the rifle was inspected, and accepted for military service again

That's essentially what they did on the underside. You can see the original wrist/keel acceptance characters but they are noticably weaker and the wrist is over stamped with the new character (look close at the wrist photo and you'll see the outline of a second crown)


Overstamps are also common on the wrist for wartime Spandaus using Amberg-supplied stocks (c/Z stamped over the Amberg A on the wrist)

Ive also seen several Bavarian reworks on Kar88s where the original acceptance/cypher was steamed/sanded and the stock restamped (and in some cases even stained)
Here's an older but good discussion on one such carbine:

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/bavarian-kar88.208689/

But if a stock was heavily damaged. It would be faster just to replace it altogether with an armorers replacement, or an entirely different stock. That stock would be more then likely be salvaged from a different rifle. That was broken down for parts, and match that stock to a rifle being repaired in a depot center.

This stock came off another rifle, so it was replaced. Parts weren't tossed unless they were too far gone.. Particularly interwar, but that's another story. Nothing was wasted then...some of the Kar98a I've seen repaired interwar are pretty remarkable in their level of salvage

I agree it's a controversial topic, but having it in hand, I'm pretty convinced.

 

[PrayingMantis]

Thanks for bringing this topic up, Chris. It’s an interesting one that apparently has sparked some contention.
I was skeptical when I first heard mention of period sanding, it sounded like someone trying to pass off a bubba sanding job as original, but then I came into a Sauer that had a clear wrist acceptance stamped over the silhouette of an old one. https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/j-p-sauer-sohn-1916-108e-hannover-rebuild.10936/
It’s futile to speculate why, but sanding did occasionally happen and reworked weapons show up with signs of it. (And calling is sanding is modern short hand, hard to say what the exact methods were, could be more like what Cyrano mentioned, which I hadn’t heard but have definitely noticed streaks in M1 stocks.) Chris’s 88 clearly shows a crisp stamp over a sanded old one. It seems like obliterating the old markings was not the goal, more plausible is that it was to smooth out the stock or clean damage of some sort.
We shouldn’t try to apply modern thinking, or look for what “makes sense” when dealing with these, but we can draw comparisons to other period work. Bolts are a great example. Some reworked bolts are lined out and renumbered, others are scrubbed and renumbered. Armorers seem to have used multiple methods when working on weapons during WWI.
Also, Modell 88 rifles were considered “front line” and were used extensively by German line infantry into 1916 as there were shortages of Modell 98s.

 

[OzzMan]

but then I came into a Sauer that had a clear wrist acceptance stamped over the silhouette of an old one. (And calling is sanding is modern short hand, hard to say what the exact methods were, could be more like what Cyrano mentioned.) https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/j-p-sauer-sohn-1916-108e-hannover-rebuild.10936/

This is a completely different model of rifle from a completely different Depot on the other side of Germany.

We shouldn’t try to apply modern thinking, or look for what “makes sense” when dealing with these, but we can draw comparisons to other period work.

You’re absolutely right on this. We should stop speculating and start diving deeper for actual sources. Some things are common knowledge and other things are not. Having a document, manual, or period photo is incredibly helpful, but I know these are very limited given two big wars happening alongside 100 years of time passing.

Who’s to say that the Germans sanded this stock? It could’ve been done by a South American or other country as most of these rifles were sold in the 30s. The sanding could’ve been done by someone here in the states. There’s no telling how many previous owners these rifles have had and what those previous owners did with them.

 

[PrayingMantis]

This is a completely different model of rifle from a completely different Depot on the other side of Germany.

Chris’s post is about period stock sanding, regardless of model or location. Don’t get hung up on the specific example.

 

[chrisftk]

This is a completely different model of rifle from a completely different Depot on the other side of Germany.

That in and of itself doesn't matter. We see variability from individual depots. We've done a few posts trying to determine SOP at various facilities and exceptions emerge to confound us. I think like most organizations there are best practices and they weren't always followed. Replaced stocks weren't always renumbered either. The best practice was to do so, but several examples have emerged to contradict that.

You can break this sort of thing down as techniques widely practiced, outliers that have been observed with some frequency and previously undocumented ones-- those should be taken with a grain of salt, but as more examples emerge, it becomes easier to accept them. There are still plenty of mysteries.

Who’s to say that the Germans sanded this stock? It could’ve been done by a South American or other country as most of these rifles were sold in the 30s.

Unless the South Americans were sheltering a team of refugee imperial inspectors I don't think they were the ones that sanded the stock in this case. Again, why is there a new wrist acceptance stamped over an old sanded one?

 

[Warrior1354]

I've seen plenty of over stamps on plenty of guns, but this does not make sense to me at all. Why would you sand old markings off the side of the stock, too apply new markings on the underside of the keel of the stock?

Plus, if you want to compare this example to others. You have to look at others from the exact same Depot centers that did the repair work. Every Depot Center that I have noticed is very different from each other.

 

[PrayingMantis]

The purpose wasn’t to sand off markings, if they had intended to remove the acceptance there wouldn’t be any trace left. (Chris mentioned that in regards to a separate case, where a Prussian cypher was replaced by a Bavarian one.) Rather the intention was likely to smooth a damaged stock, and the only way to tell that now from a bubba sanding job is that there is a fresh imperial acceptance on top of the sanding.

 

[chrisftk]

Plus, if you want to compare this example to others. You have to look at others from the exact same Depot centers that did the repair work. Every Depot Center that I have noticed is very different from each other.

Even individual depots had some variances depending on timing, etc.. variances and multiple trips would cloud the water even more. Bavarian depots are some of the most consistent, in my opinion, though you'll still see minor changes (scrubbed vs unscrubbed suffix on bolt flat, etc.) The more a practice is observed, the better I feel about it (naturally), but I still never assume any absolutes when it comes to reworking. I think this one and Cyrus's JPS are pretty compelling. I've seen others over the years which I'll share as I locate too. Either way, appreciate the pushback and at the end of the day if we aren't swayed; we can agree to disagree.

The purpose wasn’t to sand off markings, if they had intended to remove the acceptance there wouldn’t be any trace left. (Chris mentioned that in regards to a separate case, where a Prussian cypher was replaced by a Bavarian one.) Rather the intention was likely to smooth a damaged stock, and the only way to tell that now from a bubba sanding job is that there is a fresh imperial acceptance on top of the sanding.

Just so, Cyrus. Thanks!

 

[jbc98k]

The purpose wasn’t to sand off markings, if they had intended to remove the acceptance there wouldn’t be any trace left. (Chris mentioned that in regards to a separate case, where a Prussian cypher was replaced by a Bavarian one.) Rather the intention was likely to smooth a damaged stock, and the only way to tell that now from a bubba sanding job is that there is a fresh imperial acceptance on top of the sanding.

Is there any sign of repair or damage where the stock was sanded?

 

[PrayingMantis]

Is there any sign of repair or damage where the stock was sanded?

On the one I had yes, you can see a repair in the photo of the trigger guard. Can’t remember if there were others on that stock. Not sure about Chris’s, but really if it was done right there wouldn’t be much evidence left.

 

[Fal Grunt]

I keep reiterating that somewhere there are depot level work instructions. Most likely hierarchical based on capability and capacity.

I would offer one "counter" argument. It's a thin argument. Sanded stocks and heavily worn stocks are commonly seen in south american imports. OzzMan already brought this up. As Chris pointed out, this is illogical given the apparently FRESH acceptance mark. HOWEVER, many USED arms were REFURBISHED prior to shipping to their new owner. Like my "mint" 71/84 which I believe is actually refinished, there are many German arms that look to have a fair amount of wear and then were refurbished to varying degrees.

To further draw this theory out, how does such an event happen? Well of course, it takes government intervention on a massively idiotic level. I'm making this up as I eat a slice of pizza, but essentially the theory goes like this. End of WWI, there are massive amounts of surplus equipment and arms. (Paul, please correct the almost certain errors in the following) The fascists... I mean... Entente are divvying up spoils as requests pile up. As the economy collapses and civil unrest increases the IAC (im not at my shop computer so I'm doing this off the cuff, I'm probably going to get acronyms wrong because I rarely dive into this political cesspool) begins to work to retain skilled laborers and allow certain companies to begin manufacturing goods. Rarely do politicians allow something to go to waste, unless that waste will result in political gain. Why would they allow ALL the guns collected from Germany to be destroyed. We know that many were not. Many were sent to countries. Would it be hard to imagine that to curry political favor, or to engender some agreement, or buyoff, that a certain amount of those arms would have been serviced, refurbished, and sold to a smaller nation, thus ALSO allowing skilled or semi skilled laborers to continue working?

Just a thought....

Edited to add the other thought I had, which escaped by the time I typed that diatribe. Are you sure it is sanded? Of course everyone is going to say, DUH! look at it. Seriously, I can't tell from your pictures. I've had numerous guns that at first glance, the vast majority of folks would say they were sanded. They weren't. They were horribly worn. I had an Argentine 1891 that was so worn, the band springs stood proud of the stock nearly their full width. The receiver was so worn that all of the markings were gone. One could argue that it was heavily sanded 80 years ago, and then 80 years of hard use gave it the appearance of being heavily worn. That is entirely true. It is hard to say for certain as much of what we do is speculation based on observation and experience.