duv 40 Commonwealth capture

S/42 1937 7545v sold at auction. Note the following, consistent on these:
- Odd star looking stamp on left side of receiver;
- storage grease;
- AA broad arrow inspection/property stamp on stock
- paint stencil on stock, later than AA inspection stamp, with what looks like a "8-58" date

Is it just me, or does the star look like its under the finish? Like, it was there before the bluing..

nirvana said:

Is it just me, or does the star look like its under the finish? Like, it was there before the bluing..

Click to expand...

Not just you at all, me too. On that one it does. Some it clearly does not.

Another. GB auction. Someone got a good price.

Commonwealth K98k - Added Inspection Stamp

The added proof or inspection stamp on the receiver is most interesting.
I am sure it is not applied at the factory since the manufacturers had no clue where the rifle
headed after it was shipped into military inventory.

Some of those stamps look like they are finished over and some do not.

I still believe its origin is not German but rather Commonwealth.

Hence my reason for adding to the discussion as would like input on this.

The rifle that Bob just got does not have the added stamp so not entirely consistent.

Thanks,
B.

So THAT's what that disk means! Bought this all matching S/27 about 2 years ago but couldn't really get a clear explanation for the disk. The metal is pretty good, the bore is excellent, but somewhere somebody lightly sanded parts of the stock for whatever reason! I just love how there's so many spots on the rifle have the serial number and stamps, guess they had more time on their hands in 1937!

Thanks for posting Woozy. Bruce, I think that stamp a Commonwealth inspection for use. These rifles also have the rear ledge of the followers filed down so that the hold open does not lock open the bolt, as on an Enfield, likely for manual of arms, etc. That's the only modification I've seen which could warrant an inspect, other than for general function.

As for the inspections, I think those were all done over the German finish. I don't know that such a stamp would always displace finish and such so as to be completely in the white. I'm familiar with inspection stamps on other military firearms done after the factory finish, which have the original finish, and it's tough to ID them as done post finish.
Cheers,
HB

STOP IT GUYS! This is my Holy Grail - combining my love of Mausers with Commonwealth use... now I am going to HAVE to hunt one down and export it here.

Star marking is NOT a traditional Commonwealth inspector marking at all, except to mean a percentage of wear to the barrel, which I DOUBT this is.

Now nailing this down to exactly WHICH nation did it - and I am NOT leaning to India - is interesting. Egypt, Afghanistan... hard one. I have seen and owned A↑A marked P'14's (on the disc), and consensus amongst Lee Enfield collectors is Egypt, but some say Afghanistan. If you factor in the proximity to Libya (Tobruk especially) etc, and Brits/Aussies/Kiwis bringing captured rifles from the desert back to Egypt (as they did with aircraft, vehicles, heavy artillery and so on), this is more than the likely user here.

I seriously doubt any of the Indische Freiwilligen Legion der Waffen-SS weapons were sent back to India (though...well...)

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I looked over 3 of these rifles this past weekend at a friends house while he was showing me his K98k collection. He is an advanced K98k collector spanning decades.

He purchased the 3 rifles back in the early 1960's (1960 or 1961) directly from the importers warehouse out of the crates. I believe he said it was Interarms in Alexandria, VA. While he was there, he was told that it was a batch of about 200 rifles that were originally captured by the British and were later sent to Portuguese Goa. He said he paid $45 each for them back then.

One of the rifles was an early S code from 1937 or 38. The other two were a duv 40 and a byf 41 if I remember right. One of them had a stock disk with the MP marking like the others pictured.

I was trying to look up some information about them and found this thread.

243/ 1940 AA broad arrow, star on receiver no disc all matching

So is someone starting a data base?

Hello all, take a look at this Reddit post on military surplus rifles. Crazy find! And potential theory of mine for the trajectory and movements of the rifles.


Interesting part is that the poster shows a carcano that was Egyptian military stock. The rifle has a property disc that is strikingly similar to the Kar98k capture discs. The font, the brass screw, and placement on the stock are all too similar to be coincidence. This suggests to me provenance that these rifles were British captured and sent to the Alexandra Arsenal where the Egyptians then became owners of the surplus at some point. It would be at that time when the discs were placed signifying its entrance to the Egyptian military. Whereas, possibly the rifles without the property discs could have been sent to commonwealth countries who didn’t use such a disc. It is important to note that Egypt was a protectorate but never a commonwealth for Britain. They struck independence in 1922 but the schism was ragged throughout time until 1952 when full British entanglement ended.

These without the disc were simply stamped AA with the broad arrow. When the other countries retrieved them they would then add their own lettering or markings etc. commonly found as the white painted enscriptions some folks have on their rifles. Or worst case completely scrubbed of markings and worthless, for which we likely don’t recognize since being erased.

And that is assuming this wasn’t an Italian army captured rifle that was sent to the Alexandria Arsenal just like the Kar98s, of which it could too have the AA stamp that the poster isn’t aware of. If the poster is able to show close ups of the disc then maybe the branch can be made further.

Even if it is predating the war, it still shows the Egyptians were using discs for their rifles to show their ownership. Which would then prove more strongly that the British weren’t inlaying the discs, the Egyptians were only after they became owners of the rifle.

If the rifle in the post, is post war or during, then the question is did the British use the disc or the Egyptians? I almost hope the rifle predates the war which gives a clear example of how the Egyptians were using the disc, and solely using the disc.

If the rifle is only post war Egyptian, then to me this signifies still that Egypt used these discs to mark their rifles as they would have during British control during the war; or one could argue that they decidedly copied what the British did and used discs as their means to mark rifles. Perhaps a continuance of the British protocols.

I think it’s safe to say the Indian armory or arsenal wasn’t a factor in the movements of these rifles. Similar in abbreviation, but more likely a coincidence. Whereas, the Egyptians are confirmed to use the disc for their own stock. Again further proving these were Egyptian and kept after their induction to the Alexandra Arsenal.
Makes sense, it was captured in Egypt, sent to the arsenal in Egypt, and kept in the Egyptian military.

This now has me thinking, we should branch out to the other forums like a Carcano forum to see if they have a similar commonwealth themed thread where they have similar markings but maybe more verifiable information we can all use to link and answer more questions we have about these rifles and there movements.

Either way the history is decadent and rich with these rifles.

I recently purchased one of these rifles and have the disc as well. Interesting to see the post by chance and connect the dots. Hopefully this helps in the quest for more knowledge surrounding these rifles. Perhaps we can continue our dig (Egyptian archeological pun intended) and get our findings into a book one day.

Gunsmokes said:

Hello all, take a look at this Reddit post on military surplus rifles. Crazy find! And potential theory of mine for the trajectory and movements of the rifles.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Interesting part is that the poster shows a carcano that was Egyptian military stock. The rifle has a property disc that is strikingly similar to the Kar98k capture discs. The font, the brass screw, and placement on the stock are all too similar to be coincidence. This suggests to me provenance that these rifles were British captured and sent to the Alexandra Arsenal where the Egyptians then became owners of the surplus at some point. It would be at that time when the discs were placed signifying its entrance to the Egyptian military. Whereas, possibly the rifles without the property discs could have been sent to commonwealth countries who didn’t use such a disc. It is important to note that Egypt was a protectorate but never a commonwealth for Britain. They struck independence in 1922 but the schism was ragged throughout time until 1952 when full British entanglement ended.

These without the disc were simply stamped AA with the broad arrow. When the other countries retrieved them they would then add their own lettering or markings etc. commonly found as the white painted enscriptions some folks have on their rifles. Or worst case completely scrubbed of markings and worthless, for which we likely don’t recognize since being erased.

And that is assuming this wasn’t an Italian army captured rifle that was sent to the Alexandria Arsenal just like the Kar98s, of which it could too have the AA stamp that the poster isn’t aware of. If the poster is able to show close ups of the disc then maybe the branch can be made further.

Even if it is predating the war, it still shows the Egyptians were using discs for their rifles to show their ownership. Which would then prove more strongly that the British weren’t inlaying the discs, the Egyptians were only after they became owners of the rifle.

If the rifle in the post, is post war or during, then the question is did the British use the disc or the Egyptians? I almost hope the rifle predates the war which gives a clear example of how the Egyptians were using the disc, and solely using the disc.

If the rifle is only post war Egyptian, then to me this signifies still that Egypt used these discs to mark their rifles as they would have during British control during the war; or one could argue that they decidedly copied what the British did and used discs as their means to mark rifles. Perhaps a continuance of the British protocols.

I think it’s safe to say the Indian armory or arsenal wasn’t a factor in the movements of these rifles. Similar in abbreviation, but more likely a coincidence. Whereas, the Egyptians are confirmed to use the disc for their own stock. Again further proving these were Egyptian and kept after their induction to the Alexandra Arsenal.
Makes sense, it was captured in Egypt, sent to the arsenal in Egypt, and kept in the Egyptian military.

This now has me thinking, we should branch out to the other forums like a Carcano forum to see if they have a similar commonwealth themed thread where they have similar markings but maybe more verifiable information we can all use to link and answer more questions we have about these rifles and there movements.

Either way the history is decadent and rich with these rifles.

I recently purchased one of these rifles and have the disc as well. Interesting to see the post by chance and connect the dots. Hopefully this helps in the quest for more knowledge surrounding these rifles. Perhaps we can continue our dig (Egyptian archeological pun intended) and get our findings into a book one day.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the post. The stock disk in that Carcano is a standard Commonwealth type disc that they put on most firearms. In fact, it being brass and not steel points to there not being a relationship between them, the ones on these K98ks being steel with brass screws. I think the AA stamp is either Alexandria Arsenal or Allhalabad Arsenal in India. The key is finding the same AA stock stamp on an Enfield or something that has no connection to India. This AA stamp appears on a SMLE for a Gurkha unit (India) which also served in the Middle East (Alexandria, Egypt was the main Commonwealth supply point), so that didn't help.

Hambone said:

Thanks for the post. The stock disk in that Carcano is a standard Commonwealth type disc that they put on most firearms. In fact, it being brass and not steel points to there not being a relationship between them, the ones on these K98ks being steel with brass screws. I think the AA stamp is either Alexandria Arsenal or Allhalabad Arsenal in India. The key is finding the same AA stock stamp on an Enfield or something that has no connection to India. This AA stamp appears on a SMLE for a Gurkha unit (India) which also served in the Middle East (Alexandria, Egypt was the main Commonwealth supply point), so that didn't help.

Click to expand...

I wouldn’t say the brass versus steel discs somehow tears the relationship apart. I did catch the other rifle was brass as well. All this shows is that the British or their protectorates/commonwealths may have used discs for inventory purposes. Still unsure of who placed the discs. The British or the commonwealths. There is evidence though that Egypt has placed the same style of disc.

Some used steel, others brass; during a war that’s understandable as resources are not just lying around. And sticking to an SOP to make all proofs the same isn’t really on everyone’s mind during the chaos. Not for commonwealths that is. Perhaps the British would maintain strict adherence and uniformity. Just like Mauser did for example throughout the war, even to its end.

I do not think these AA stamps are of Indian origin. Especially seeing as how the geography makes more sense for it to be Alexandra Arsenal which sits within Alexandria, Egypt. Shipping these to India, which incurs a large cost and usage of scarce resources, not to mention the potential loss of cargo as the war was still ongoing, makes India a rather laborious and wasted project. Just doesn’t make any sense.

Funny how the SMLE found also has the AA stamp while serving in the same geographical area that happens to be near or at Alexandria in Egypt. It was then moved to India after, which seems again to back the claim that AA is Alexandria.

Don’t forget that Indian languages are written in Devanagari. So western alphabets wouldn’t make sense if India was marking their own rifles.

I did find an Indian enfield with a SA stamp. This has an arrow between it. Perhaps the British marked the respective armories.


Here is a British only rifle who used the steel inlay with brass screw. This would not have been sent to the commonwealths. Interesting to see the British procedure was to inlay their rifles historically. This then can mean that just because we see an inlay doesn’t mean the British didn’t keep and use the rifles themselves. Although I would think the more logical is that the rifles captured would be used for things like a military police force stood up by the British for controlling sectors as needed.


This Indian enfiled has no inlay but only red lettering. Others on the forum have red or white as shown. This seems to show the Indian military never used the inlay. Perhaps stamping and lettering, but not inlays. Maybe the British were the only ones who did, and seeing an Indian rifle with an inlay only suggests British use first then turn over to their eventual owners.

Which then would make sense if the AA stamp was the induction to the arsenal, reviewed for safety and function, then the British turned them to purpose for issuance to whomever they needed. As the British were uniform, the rifles would then all be inlayed with the cartouche and as such whomever ended up with these rifles were not adding the inlay but only inheriting an already inlayed rifle.

The inlays I have seen have always come after the AA stamp. Evidenced by the inlay being over the stamp which would have had to be there before the inlay.


I could see a process of sifting the arms to the arsenal and designating them where needed.

Another Indian enfiled with Indian markings with the same SA marking. No inlay. Further evidence inlays or AA marking is not Indian.





Interesting find here is of an Indian made enfield made for the British during the war. Notice anything missing? That’s right, the inlay that the British would have used under their SOP. From there the rifle found its way state side and some idiot either before or after tried to replace the hole with more wood.





The proverbial dig continues.

The more I research the more I find the British were the ones to use the disc and NOT the commonwealths as mentioned here. This is evidenced by the following videos of British only rifles and the links I posted above where only the British rifles had the disc while commonwealths did not.

If you notice the trend, it seems the British used the discs for older rifles and iterations of the enfield especially. Then somewhere the British stopped using it. While it looks like the commonwealths didn’t use it, and if they had it with a disc, it was a consequence of being a British rifle first and then becoming a commonwealth used rifle last.

Lastly, evidence of what I said (British used discs and the commonwealths having them was only a byproduct of the previous British ownership) is shown here: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/lee-enfield

The Canadians involved in disputes and wars for Britain acquired British enfields which had the discs. Proof that they Canadians, a commonwealth, never placed the discs but inherited them. Anyone who came after and saw the Canadian rifle would perhaps think the discs were placed there by the commonwealth but that wouldn’t be accurate.

Stock discs are found in SMLEs of pretty much every Commonwealth nation, Indian, Canadian, Australian, South African, etc etc. We know they aren’t British made disks because they have maker inspects and markings from the Commonwealth countries which made them and used them. The “AA broad arrow” is either Alexandria or Allhalabad. Either works with the known provenance of the import of these rifles.

Hambone said:

Stock discs are found in SMLEs of pretty much every Commonwealth nation, Indian, Canadian, Australian, South African, etc etc. We know they aren’t British made disks because they have maker inspects and markings from the Commonwealth countries which made them and used them. The “AA broad arrow” is either Alexandria or Allhalabad. Either works with the known provenance of the import of these rifles.

Click to expand...

Well they would be found for those countries as the British either supplied them or they supplied the British who made the discs. There are known British only rifles that never saw the commonwealth who have discs. So the statement that they can’t be British doesn’t hold for that. I evidenced this above as well.

It is inherently possible the disks were stamped post British usage. No different than someone giving you something today that had markings already and instead of destroying the marking you add to it. Especially if the disk is inset in wood that would make removing it stupid.

I don’t see this being Indian for the AA stamp. Nothing to show for it. Exceptionally there is evident proof that the AA was stamped on things that crossed the Egyptian landscape at some point. More proof AA is Alexandria.

Again I show evidence for these claims above.


Also, no argument from me or trying to be combative. Just stating what I have uncovered in my research so far. But I am always willing to see the light when and if I’m wrong. So like I said, the dig lives on.

Also here is a Bren machine gun, British only that funnily has a brass disk only. Safe to say disks were a British thing.


This WWI rifle supports my claim that the British liked using the disks but eventually stopped sometime later in WW2 or post.


And if this doesn’t send the bolt home, not sure what can. Maybe a forward assist?
Picture of a British soldier and disk.
Both links showing British soldiers using enfields with visible stock disks.
Can’t get more evident than that. This was WWI. I’ll show WWII soon.

Again, as stated a number of times and as already addressed:
1) Stock discs as discussed here were made and used by virtually all Commonwealth countries. That’s because they were in the regs.
2) The discs are likely Military Provost, meaning they were in MP possession, inventory, and/or use.

Please just go back and read the prior posts. The most rational theories and probable origin are well addressed.

Hambone said:

Again, as stated a number of times and as already addressed:
1) Stock discs as discussed here were made and used by virtually all Commonwealth countries. That’s because they were in the regs.
2) The discs are likely Military Provost, meaning they were in MP possession, inventory, and/or use.

Please just go back and read the prior posts. The most rational theories and probable origin are well addressed.

Click to expand...

Incorrect. See my last post. British soldiers using rifles with disks. Not sure where the disconnect is.