DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts
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M45
Well-known member
hkp M42 champagne SS
hkp M42 champagne SS
Hambone, the word "exposes" in your title may be a bit strong. I believe Doug has merely agreed with the research done by others on this topic. He was once a firm believer in the C-SS decal as can be seen in archived posts in various forums over the years. As people began having doubts, he very gradually began to change his opinions. It has been a long process (like about 4 years) with him going from full believer to his "coming out" party and outing the C-SS decal as a template spray-painted fake.
The WRF (war relics forum) posts below show the extreme opinions of plenty of period photographic evidence supporting the hkp M42 Champagne SS helmets in 2011 to them pretty much being non-existent in 2015.
hkp M42 champagne SS
Hambone, the word "exposes" in your title may be a bit strong. I believe Doug has merely agreed with the research done by others on this topic. He was once a firm believer in the C-SS decal as can be seen in archived posts in various forums over the years. As people began having doubts, he very gradually began to change his opinions. It has been a long process (like about 4 years) with him going from full believer to his "coming out" party and outing the C-SS decal as a template spray-painted fake.
The WRF (war relics forum) posts below show the extreme opinions of plenty of period photographic evidence supporting the hkp M42 Champagne SS helmets in 2011 to them pretty much being non-existent in 2015.
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I'll say this, nobody knows everything and the reality is probably all of us believed something in the past that we now know is false. What makes a collector good is keeping an open mind and changing opinions with the exposure to truth and evidence.
Most of the time the reason people hold on to untruth is money, pure and simple. The guys with $5000 champagne SS decal helmets are going to be the last to fold, and those that DO fold with those in their collection are the ones that have a chance of surviving the collecting "game of thrones".
Most of the time the reason people hold on to untruth is money, pure and simple. The guys with $5000 champagne SS decal helmets are going to be the last to fold, and those that DO fold with those in their collection are the ones that have a chance of surviving the collecting "game of thrones".
M45
Well-known member
mrfarb, I'll say this: those we accept as our SS helmet "experts", authorities or whatever you call them, those who wall-paper their walls with SS helmets, those who make or agree with such unsupported statements like plenty of period photographic evidence supporting C-SS decals, I guess they make mistakes like the rest of us. But is that a 'mistake', or a catastrophic tragedy?
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I like DougB because unlike the vast majority of people (e.g., Democrats), he is able to recognize and objectively apply information he does not initially agree with in order to come to the correct conclusion. Being right and admitting you are right is a helluva lot easier than thinking you are right, investigating, then admitting you were wrong and advancing the truth. He did that with XRFacts and he has done that here.
Generally speaking, he will have exposed this completely, to a mass audience, and provide proof which should end the controversy, except for those stuck with these $5000+ fake lids and those who peddle them, and their toady friends.
M45
Well-known member
Hambone, don't get me wrong. I am thrilled that an SS guru has come out against the C-SS decals. But you must admit that the statement that there is plenty of period photographic evidence supporting the hkp M42 C-SS helmet is absolute rubbish. It was as much rubbish then as it is today. Everything was kind of rolled into one big ball; pocher-SS, ET-SS, Champagne-SS, EF-SS, Q-SS; plenty of period photographic evidence to support all of these, right?
I wonder what Kelly thinks about all of these developments, especially since he and Doug are such close collecting friends.
I wonder what Kelly thinks about all of these developments, especially since he and Doug are such close collecting friends.
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All my opinions:
I did not know of that statement. I've felt for about 30 years that SS helmet collecting was far too filled with fakes, pontificating klowns, and demigod hustlas for my taste. I'm not a guru of anything, but even I could see problems with many of the SS lid demigod blessings. No sense in arguing with them if you are merely a mortal and they or their sock puppets control the forum censor/delete/ban buttons. That was the problem with that sect of the hobby, which remains today: overstuffed self-important pontificators controlling information and lid blessings, and the mindless obsequious minions who worship them. The minions won't break ranks lest they be cut off from their trinkets like a drug whore getting cut off from her dealers. This was the inherent danger with XRFacts, and IMHO, some demigods sought to control the authentication game and profit from it through that fraudulent light show.
A hobby which heavily censors and controls its forums is not to be trusted. It is not transparent. It is as trustworthy as the 0bongo Regime or the North Koreans. So, I was not aware of any of these things anymore than I autopsy roadkill. It is enough for me that it's in the road and covered with flies. While knowing what it was before it became a carcass is interesting, I'm not turning around to get out my car to investigate, nor do I care whether it was smoked a Ford F150 or a Honda Ridgeline.
I do think DougB is blowing the lid off of this as he is putting a final definitive spike in the "champagne rune" coffin, the "Denouement of the Champagne Rune Hoax" Perhaps this may even be an ethical climax in the German helmet drama which will lead to some ethical and intellectual cleansing.
M45
Well-known member
WAF: In reference to NS64 SS Single decal M42. Of interest is that as far back as 2004 Champagne-SS decals had been described as having a 'sprayed-on' look to them. Also notice the belief that NS M42 SS helmets should be of the champagne variety. Another helmet "guru" convinced of these.
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M45
Well-known member
More champagne discussions on WAF:
From the WAF thread "A clean SS M-42"
Some are doubting, but the bigwigs have most convinced. Now looking back on it, its almost like comedy hour. Mr. Vaughn is commenting on the thinness of the decal (spray painted on instead of stacked celluloid?).
So way back in 2006 we were being warned of an SS decal that would fool almost everyone, but the bigwigs were dragging doubters to their side.
From the WAF thread "A clean SS M-42"
Some are doubting, but the bigwigs have most convinced. Now looking back on it, its almost like comedy hour. Mr. Vaughn is commenting on the thinness of the decal (spray painted on instead of stacked celluloid?).
So way back in 2006 we were being warned of an SS decal that would fool almost everyone, but the bigwigs were dragging doubters to their side.
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M45
Well-known member
From the WAF thread "A clean SS M-42"
An interesting post by TVG (M35) Terry Goodapple the helmet book author (photo 1)
By golly, someone is starting to question lot# ranges in reference to the Champagne SS helmets
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194348&highlight=champagne&page=5
An interesting post by TVG (M35) Terry Goodapple the helmet book author (photo 1)
By golly, someone is starting to question lot# ranges in reference to the Champagne SS helmets
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194348&highlight=champagne&page=5
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I put little stock in the bloviations of the waftarded as that drivel is toady vetted and wafmod censored. I'd as soon ask Josh Earnest about how good of a job 0bama (that's with a zero) is doing. Point is, Pythagoras concluded the world was round through then complex science a couple thousand years before Magellan proved it to the morons, the ignorant and the mislead masses. Pythagoras gets credit but Magellan gets the "W".
tjg79
Senior Member
I tend to agree with M45 that Doug B isn't the one to have exposed "Champagne Rune" SS lids as fake. He's just now espousing that opinion belatedly, after others have well established the case against them for a considerable time. I think Doug B is forthright and I think it's great that some lid gurus have an open mind towards questioning authenticity, but I don't think Doug B deserves the primary credit for this exposure. As I've mentioned, it's not new information that C SS lids are post war fantasies.
However, I haven't read the thread, so I don't know if Doug B has some new information about the C R application method, high resolution evidence of fakery, or other new information that corroborates or compliments what evidence or data others have asserted. Again, I think it good news that another high end collector critically examines what others have long accepted and now questions the authenticity of C SS lids.
Regards
However, I haven't read the thread, so I don't know if Doug B has some new information about the C R application method, high resolution evidence of fakery, or other new information that corroborates or compliments what evidence or data others have asserted. Again, I think it good news that another high end collector critically examines what others have long accepted and now questions the authenticity of C SS lids.
Regards
I agree with you and M45. If it was some fakery in K98k world here all would be transparent and no one would have to break through the WAF censorship, toadyism, etc. to prove the point to the SS lid sheeple. From what I was sent he has definitive high magnification proof that ends the debate for all but the most moronic and most crooked. This there will still be "believers" but they will be in an intellectual caste with Sasquatch hunters and XRFacts salesmen.
M45
Well-known member
I think those earlier WAF posts are interesting because they show about when in time knowledge and acceptance of the Champagne SS decal began to break out into the wider collecting community. They also show the initial skepticism and eventual acceptance by the majority. It looks like it was peer pressure, (possibly caused by unseen PMs - I'm afraid we'll never know the whole truth) that convinced the doubters. After all, if Kelly likes them, they must be good, right?
M45
Well-known member
I just realized something, is Doug saying that the champagne SS decals are not decals at all, but sprayed directly on the helmet with a template?
Sorry, I'm a bit slow today. I was thinking that a celluloid backing was sprayed with the runes which was then applied like a standard decal, but it sounds as if the whole shoot'in match was sprayed directly to the helmet.
Now it becomes apparent that this spray-job (or snow-job) was seen early on by some and should have been seen by the SS helmet 'gurus' proper.
Also, the XRFacts ray gun would have detected paint when it should have detected the celluloid material of a real decal.
I would say offhand that the black shield background was sprayed first, then the white shield with SS runes masked was sprayed on top of the black shield.
"Sock-puppets", Hambone? Indeed
Sorry, I'm a bit slow today. I was thinking that a celluloid backing was sprayed with the runes which was then applied like a standard decal, but it sounds as if the whole shoot'in match was sprayed directly to the helmet.
Now it becomes apparent that this spray-job (or snow-job) was seen early on by some and should have been seen by the SS helmet 'gurus' proper.
Also, the XRFacts ray gun would have detected paint when it should have detected the celluloid material of a real decal.
I would say offhand that the black shield background was sprayed first, then the white shield with SS runes masked was sprayed on top of the black shield.
"Sock-puppets", Hambone? Indeed
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tjg79
Senior Member
That's one of the many limitations of handheld XRF testing of lids, why it's essentially worthless for determining authenticity, and why it could never do what it was advertised to do; it can't distinguish the separate layers of paint and decal on a metal substrate, it only detects elements, and it doesn't detect all the elements present. The celluloid elements are likely invisible to the handheld XRF so it can't distinguish between a decal or just paint.
If Doug B is taking another slap at XRFacts for its failure on C SS lids, that's good news and kudos to Doug B. Now, David "maui" May will scramble to find other uses for his handheld ray-guy. I hear it's good at zapping mold spores on painted surfaces. Perhaps he could open a mold on lid removal service. If you're an asthmatic lid collector, David May could be your hero.
Regards
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I just realized something, is Doug saying that the champagne SS decals are not decals at all, but sprayed directly on the helmet with a template?
Sorry, I'm a bit slow today. I was thinking that a celluloid backing was sprayed with the runes which was then applied like a standard decal, but it sounds as if the whole shoot'in match was sprayed directly to the helmet.
Now it becomes apparent that this spray-job (or snow-job) was seen early on by some and should have been seen by the SS helmet 'gurus' proper.
Also, the XRFacts ray gun would have detected paint when it should have detected the celluloid material of a real decal.
I would say offhand that the black shield background was sprayed first, then the white shield with SS runes masked was sprayed on top of the black shield.
"Sock-puppets", Hambone? Indeed
That is what he said. Complete spray job and he said he'll prove it. My opinion on WAF is that it is not intellectually honest and the information is tainted by special interest. My use of the term "sock puppet" is for any clown who is merely a mouthpiece for someone else thinking for them; they are little more than proxies for their minders, wittingly and unwittingly. That would be the waftarded.
The XRF ray gun already failed with the "Champagne runes" as it was used to "authenticate" them when they are a hoax. This would be far from the first time that XRFact's ray gun "authenticated" a fake helmet. Those who jumped on the XRFacts idiot parade float to ride and wave should be embarrassed for being such rubes.
tjg79
Senior Member
That's because XRFacts used fakes as the standard which is a major flaw in their test method. If Kelly Hicks thought it was good, then it was included in their baseline standard. If anything has been proven it's that Hicks is far from infallible at authenticating lids. They were just comparing a fake to a fake. That's not to say their method would work if they had only genuine original lids as standards, because the data produced by the handheld XRF doesn't have the resolution to detect the vast majority of paint variations notwithstanding the total misapplication of the instrument. Even if they had a hypothetical instrument that could produce useful data, they wouldn't know what they were interpreting, because they don't know what legit TR era lid paint looks like at that level of resolution contrary to maui's claims of breaking the code. And, the chemical composition of paint didn't miraculously change in May 1945.
My opinion is that these people are poor stewards of the hobby and why helmet collecting generally is beset with drama, dishonesty, intrigue, and these little strutting lid demi-gods and their toadies who must censor and restrict information to make themselves look perpetually correct, competent and honest. That the two major and glaring hoaxes of the "Champagne SS decal" and "XRFacts" were able to exist this long, and in the case of XRFacts, get any traction at all, is proof to me that these people involved are at best arrogant clowns and at worst, hucksters.
Gentlemen, the truth and those looking for it don't need toady mod censors, censorship, and threats to silence those who disagree with and question them. The truth stands on its own and honest people on solid ground welcome criticism and debate.