Third Party Press

Zf41 info not sounding right....

Zeppelin5000

Zeppelin5000

Senior Member
I'm no where near knowledgeable on scoped 98k's, but a guy on social media stated the following below. I've never heard this before and it sounds like BS to me. From what I know, only 3 manufacturers produced Zf41 scoped rifles with Mauser-Oberndorf being the last and that any Zf41 scoped rifle marked anything other than duv, ar and byf is a fake. I've never heard of any "insert" sent out to waffenmeisters to retrofit normal 98k rifles with Zf41's. This what his reasoning for having a bnz marked rifle with a Zf41...

"The Germans had no official sniper program until ealry 1944. By 1943, the OKH instituted an ad hoc oder to supply as many infantry regiments with ZF41 scopes as possible, almost to Zug level. Factory fitted ZF41 K98's were not sufficient and that's why the special mount insert was created to be sent to regimental Waffenmeisters. There are far more K98's thus outfited than original, factory made ZF40/1 systems. Those had the cans matched to rifle and scope. This can is unmarked. It is also why the stock relief cut was not made."

I asked for documentation on this since I never heard this before and he sent me a link to a Japanese website on Zf41 scopes:


I couldn't find anything there stating what he said. Who's right here?
 
I agree regarding the inserts not being a period practice. I’m not sure what is meant by the statement of no official sniper program prior to early 1944? If program means sniper training schools, doctrine and official adopted optics, mounts and rifles and factory built and tested….well all of that was occurring on some scale by fairly early 1943 and most of those things were occurring to some degree even earlier. I would agree that 1944 was when the scale really increased.
 
Zeppelin5000 said:
By 1943, the OKH instituted an ad hoc oder to supply as many infantry regiments with ZF41 scopes as possible, almost to Zug level. Factory fitted ZF41 K98's were not sufficient and that's why the special mount insert was created to be sent to regimental Waffenmeisters. There are far more K98's thus outfited than original, factory made ZF40/1 systems. Those had the cans matched to rifle and scope. This can is unmarked. It is also why the stock relief cut was not made."
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By late 1943 the ZF41 was already declared obsolete and ZF41 scope manufacturers were told to deliver remaining stock up until end of 1943. If he refers to an ad hoc order of OKH, then he should be as nice as to show you this order since he specifically refers to this.
 
Here are the photos of the rifle he posted . No close ups.
 

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Absolut said:
By late 1943 the ZF41 was already declared obsolete and ZF41 scope manufacturers were told to deliver remaining stock up until end of 1943. If he refers to an ad hoc order of OKH, then he should be as nice as to show you this order since he specifically refers to this.
Click to expand...
Which we know it actually took them until mid 1944 to deliver all of them. I would still love to know the reason why they started again in late 1944.
 
Sure you cannot find the statement in my site because there is none.
The Merkblatt 25/4 "Anleitung für die Ausbildung und den Einsatz von Scharfschützen" is dated May 1943. You can find that in my site.
It is quite interesting that some people tend to ignore my information and find information which I do not state.
 
This subject has come up before. One of our well known members had shown photos of a ground dug ZF-41 rifle in the last year. I can’t find the thread but I believe it was BCD/AR and there were several examples. If I’m not mistaken.
Edit: BCD example post #5:
www.k98kforum.com

Unused BCD 4 ZF41rifle with matching case incl. brush, cloth and bakelite cup with spare parts

Hello, first post from me (German gun collector) I hereby post some pictures of my BCD 4 ZF41 rifle incl. matching case. The question I have : does anybody know if this is a complete case or does it miss anything? and was it usual to have both the scope no. as-well as the rifle no. on the...
www.k98kforum.com www.k98kforum.com
 
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I have limited knowledge and don't own one of these, but I did believe that they issued kits with replacement rear sight bases with the rail attached, in order to retrofit Kar-98k's with these "scout scopes" at the unit level. I thought that was why some rifles did not have the stock inletted uniformly for the scope from the factory.

I think this belief came mostly from videos and (I think) an older American Rifleman magazine article (?? of which I still have a copy boxed up) so I don't have any primary source and I have no opinion about the pedigree of anybody's rifle or about any 1943 OKH order, which on it's face sounds odd or mis-remembered. I guess I only say this to show that outside the collector community, this must be a common belief that K98k rifles were retrofitted with ZF-41's by field armorers. It certainly was my belief until today, but I defer to you guys on this forum, if I have been misinformed.

zf41 scope - Search Videos

www.bing.com www.bing.com

This is a link to a Forgotten Weapons video in which Ian describes the ZF-41. At about the 19:12 mark he describes a kit to retrofit KAR98k's at the unit level, and issues they had fitting "rack grade" rifles with the retrofit field kits.

Regards,
 
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I would never exclude any field conversions. These though are never documented, except for period pictures, what will be impossible to tell for most ZF41 rifles, unless you find one with a rifle that doesn't have a stock cutout. But the field conversions are rare and to most extend impossible to proof, unless relic condition and recently found, as well as due to these facts do not command a premium. Also, most people who have fakes claim their particular piece to be one of these field conversions, in a hope to make the item something better than someonese basement job.

Addendum: I would highly question if someone in the field would have enough time in 1944 to pull a rear sight base and replace it with another one with rail, saw cut the stock to clear for a small scope and then bother a long time to properly zero it, only to then again get complaints on how odd and non helpful a scope with this low magnification is .. not saying it couldn't be the case (such as items on the very bottom of this page proof --> http://espeholt.dk/g41_scope.html ), just that in most cases the period, circumstances and required skills speak against this.
 
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