WKC 1940 10000c

[Slash]

There has been some discussion of serial numbering ranges in a thread or two here on the forum. Regarding numbering blocks as far as ranges running to either 9999 or 10000. German serial numbers were assigned in blocks of 10000 NOT 9999. This applies to rifles, pistols, machineguns, bayonets, and other small arms. The 9999 block assertion is erroneous but often cited/repeated as fact. With this in mind I present S84/98 WKC 1940 10000c in detail.

Have owned this piece for some years but first time posting any information. The bayonet is of standard production for the period in markings and finish. Stick wing eagle WaA253 twice to the pommel, beneath the mortice slot, top flat of the locking bolt, face of the locking nut, and the scabbard finial ball. The phenolic grip scales supplied by Ernst Backhaus und Cie., are numbered 10000 to the bayonet and stamped with an eagle swastika WaA253. They have an additional stamping of 5 which is most probably a bench, assembly or finisher number. The flashguard is also stamped with the 5 as well as 10000. The blade blank is stamped with the expected forging marks for WKC during this period as well as the 5. The bottom flat of the locking bolt is also 10000 numbered. The blade spine is stamped with a 40 date although it does not appear in any of the pics below.

There is noticeable frog wear to the scabbard as expected from a fielded piece. The wear patterns, especially to the reverse are in a pattern which suggests it may have been fitted with a tropical web frog at some point. My thoughts only .....

 

[Slash]

Additional photos ....

 

[ugafx4]

Well that is neat, thanks for sharing!

 

[pwcosol]

Slasher, I luv it!!! Finally proof that the serial number letter blocs did indeed end at 10K (a least by most manufacturers anyway). Considering every serial number in each block is a one in 10K number, it goes to show just how infrequently a specific number is encountered. Never seen another 10K sn other than the one pictured...Bravo!

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

Wow ! Excellent condition and cool serial number.

 

[grimlin13]

Fantastic! Glad you got this posted. I have been waiting for it. Anymore goodies you got stashed away?

 

[bert.f]

Hello,
The correct numbering is from "1" to 9.999. The number 10.000 was already a five-digit number and was not used that way.
regards . bert

 

[AndyB]

When looking at the pieces that was reported on this forum, there is clear the stamps were done by normal serial mashine not by hand, so the stamping is real, same as occured on reported Gew98 from WW1, on later Kar98k, MP40 production, on bayonets too. The period contracts done by Wehrmacht were never done on similar range also - 9999 but allways in form of 10000 bunches or their multiples.

 

[bert.f]

I did not mean the number of pieces in the order, but the numbering of individual bayonets, in the range of 1-9999 pieces. In my opinion, the number 10,000 was not used after the number 9999, but was moved to the next series and started from the number 1 with the prefix

 

[bert.f]

the prefix under the number 10000 is the letter" and ". in 1940, there was a change in the coding of the manufacturer's name from WKC to cvl, and the prefix "j" means bayonets marked with the code "cvl". Maybe at the end of the use of the name WKC they celebrated it by stamping 10,000

 

[Slash]

The correct numbering is from "1" to 9.999. The number 10.000 was already a five-digit number and was not used that way. regards . bert

I did not mean the number of pieces in the order, but the numbering of individual bayonets, in the range of 1-9999 pieces. In my opinion, the number 10,000 was not used after the number 9999, but was moved to the next series and started from the number 1 with the prefix

the prefix under the number 10000 is the letter" and ". in 1940, there was a change in the coding of the manufacturer's name from WKC to cvl, and the prefix "j" means bayonets marked with the code "cvl". Maybe at the end of the use of the name WKC they celebrated it by stamping 10,000

I'm sorry but these assertions range from simply incorrect to absurd. My intent is not to argue, but to correct the record.

Serial number blocks were 1 to 10000. Followed by 1a to 10000a. I have researched this area for some time and multiple 10000 numbered examples have been observed on P.08, P.38, Gew98, K98k, G/K43, MP40, S84/98 and other small arms.

The letter under the serial number is a c in Sütterlin script (see image below - upper left). The c is a suffix, not a prefix. The next bayonet finished after the 10000c would have been 1d. WKC did change from their name marking to the cvl code in 1940. This change occurred in the late i or early j block; over 50000 pieces later than the 10000c example above. The 1 to 10000 series numbering was standard and has nothing to do with any marking changes from WKC to cvl. Nor do I believe it has anything to do with a celebration marking the end of using the WKC trademark which in my opinion strains credulity.

 

[grimlin13]

Hello,
The correct numbering is from "1" to 9.999. The number 10.000 was already a five-digit number and was not used that way.
regards . bert

I did not mean the number of pieces in the order, but the numbering of individual bayonets, in the range of 1-9999 pieces. In my opinion, the number 10,000 was not used after the number 9999, but was moved to the next series and started from the number 1 with the prefix

the prefix under the number 10000 is the letter" and ". in 1940, there was a change in the coding of the manufacturer's name from WKC to cvl, and the prefix "j" means bayonets marked with the code "cvl". Maybe at the end of the use of the name WKC they celebrated it by stamping 10,000

Huh?

 

[bert.f]

Sorry, I'm writing in English with an automated translation below (apologies for mistakes).
I think it's the letter "i"

 

[bert.f]

Hello,
quote from the book Sebastian Thiem " Das Seitengewehr 84/98 bei der Reichswehr und Wehrmacht 1920 bis 1945"
"Die Nummerierung startete nun bei den einzelen Herstellerbetrieben , jeder Betrieb nummerierte eigenstandig und getrennt von den ubrigen, zu Beginn des Geschaftsjahres mit der 1 und es wurde nun fortlaufend bis 9999 durchnummeriert. Die nummer 10.000 WAR BEREITS EINE FUNFSTELLIGE ZAHL UND WURDE SO NICHT AUFGEBRACHT. Nach den besagten 9.999 Exemplaren wurde deshalb wieder angefangen, mit "1" zu nummerieren."

 

[bert.f]

"The numbering now started with the individual manufacturers, each company was numbered independently and separately from the others, at the beginning of the financial year with the number 1 and then it was numbered continuously up to 9999. The number 10,000 WAS ALREADY A FIVE-DIGIT NUMBER AND WAS NOT APPLIED AS SUCH. After the aforementioned 9,999 copies, numbering with "1" began again."

 

[AndyB]

-Sebastian Thiem has some errors in the book and this is the one of it. many problematic opinions, similar to start with Geschaftjahres.
-And offcoarse Slash is correct for the letter c on the WKC40, similar designation was deciphered already on BCN 20 years ago. Bert You dont have a correct sutterlin table that was used by WKC unfortunally. It doesnt have the additional strike in upper part and has a dot above letter i ,which is here not present clearly.

 

[CanadianAR]

Beautiful piece. The SN is very cool.

The frog wear, in my opinion, can only be made by the Rubber frog from Reise Berlin in 41.

There are 98k rifles in existence with the serial 10000 proving that this is the system. Books published prior to this moment are subject to being wrong as it based on observations made at the time.

 

[AndyB]

S.Thiem is not a fully oriented in this area unfortunally to contrary of WW1 period bayonets, even he wrote a book, easy way because he used some of old unpublished archive material of Franz Rudiger, but no one of these people did have a dbase of real numbers or large collection of real bayonets S84/98 and didnt compare their published opinions with real samples. Some of the producer had different serialing, to sample Ferlach used 100000 digit serial system same as jwh never went back to 1 wout serial suffix in beginn of year, but continued fluently with their serialing from beginn of 1941 to end of 1944.

 

[ANDYH]

Awesome bayonet with proof of the 10000 sn. Thanks for posting.